EU residency/work visa for American husband of Estonian wife

[quantabeam]

Hi All,

I am new to this forum. Thanks in advance.

I am Korean-American w/naturalized US citizenship and US passport. My wife is an Estonian citizen w/EU passport, and recently got a US green card.

We got married in California almost 3 years ago. My wife lives in San Francisco, but I am now in Korea for work. I am thinking of living and working in Europe. Questions:

1. Can I get an EU residency/work visa even though neither of us have resided in the EU lately?
2. Must we go to Estonia to do this, or can we do this in any EU country i.e. Spain, France, or the Netherlands?
3. Must we do this together, or can I go on my own?
4. What documents do I (or we) need.

Ideally, I would go to Spain on my own, and establish work while my wife stays in California for income reasons. Then in a year or so, she would come to Europe. Is that possible?

[Wanderer]

Hi All,

I am new to this forum. Thanks in advance.

I am Korean-American w/naturalized US citizenship and US passport. My wife is an Estonian citizen w/EU passport, and recently got a US green card.

We got married in California almost 3 years ago. My wife lives in San Francisco, but I am now in Korea for work. I am thinking of living and working in Europe. Questions:

1. Can I get an EU residency/work visa even though neither of us have resided in the EU lately?
2. Must we go to Estonia to do this, or can we do this in any EU country i.e. Spain, France, or the Netherlands?
3. Must we do this together, or can I go on my own?
4. What documents do I (or we) need.

Ideally, I would go to Spain on my own, and establish work while my wife stays in California for income reasons. Then in a year or so, she would come to Europe. Is that possible?

1. Yes

2. Any. Google EU Treaty Right

3. You can't go on ur own.

4. Search these fora

Of course u can travel on ur US PP but u can't normally work.

[sakura]

If you want to go on your own, you'd need a work permit, obtained on your own merits (i.e. your wife's status would be of almost no use).

If you decide to move together, then you can apply under the European directive (there are many posts about it here, so do a search on 'residence card'). The UK Immigration for family members and Ireland sections have a lot of posts on this.

[86ti]

Just adding to what has been said already. If you decided to go to Estonia together be aware that the EU directive will not be applicable to you and that you would have to go there under Estonia's national law. National laws may be less favourable.

[Richard66]

On the other hand, they might be more favourable. You need to check the Estonian transposition of Directive 2004/38 and see what it says.

[Wanderer]

On the other hand, they might be more favourable. You need to check the Estonian transposition of Directive 2004/38 and see what it says.

But would it apply there being no treaty right being exercised?

Anyway Estonia probably follows the Soviet model here, inefficient, corrupt, and an exercise in futility. Richard, you must have been to OVIR in Russia, this is page from the legendary Moscow Guide, Uncle Pasha, read the whole site at http://www.unclepasha.com - if you've a Russian missus, you'll love it...

Russian Misery Tourism
INVITATIONS, VISAS, AND REGISTRATION HASSLES

Experience Russian bureaucracy!

On your request we'll make no effort to isolate you from the intricacies of the invitation, visa and registration process. Provided you are willing to pay for my time,

I'll issue you an invitation myself, which will expose you to the mechanism professional visa sponsors normally keep out of your site. You will do your own registration in the neighbourhood militia station. You'll spend hours and days at the famous OVIR. You'll be fined for not getting registered, and with some luck even prevented from leaving teh country.

I'll help you to experience, by going through the visa process, how truly unwelcome you the tourist and the cash and business you bring are in this land.

Come to Russia for an eye opening experience of how small and insignificant you are before the bureaucratic machine.

You may temporarily develop longing for your home public service. Don't be fooled, they are the same. To compound the shock I'll take you to the embassy of your own country where you'll pretend you are a Russian national wishing to visit the US, England or whatever for a further doze of abuse till you understand that there is no way out.

[Richard66]

If they extend the same rights to their nationals (the way the Italians do) the answer is yes. The catch is, I do not know how they transposed the directive, so...

Don't throw Russian bureaucracy at me! My wife, having dealt with the Italian one, now tells me how things were straighforward, simple and easy in Russia.

[quantabeam]

Thank you all for your helpful responses.

I would like to clarify my understanding of your information, and get a bit more specific as well:

1. I now understand that I can get EU residency and a work visa because of my marriage. Even though neither of us have been in Europe lately, her Estonian passport is basically proof of her EU status?

2. I guess there is some debate as to whether or not going to Estonia would be preferable or not. To be frank, I think we prefer Spain or France. As I understand it, that would not be a problem.

3. I also understand that we must go together to apply for residency and a work visa. Does this mean we can just buy tickets to Spain or France, check into a hotel, apply for papers, and then start looking for work, and a place to live? At that point, my wife can return to the States to continue her job for the following year or so, while I hunt around on my own for work in Europe? How long is the typical time frame for a residency visa and/or a work visa under these circumstances? A year? 2 years? 5 years?

4. As far as documentation goes, I am assuming that our passports, and an apostilled copy of our marriage certificate from California is basically it?

[Wanderer]

3. Ur right to live/work in EU is on the back of ur wife's right so she has to be there.

It's not a simple as just going - u;ll need whatever the Spaniards or Italians call what we in the UK call the EEA Family Permit.

[sakura]

Thank you all for your helpful responses.

I would like to clarify my understanding of your information, and get a bit more specific as well:

1. I now understand that I can get EU residency and a work visa because of my marriage. Even though neither of us have been in Europe lately, her Estonian passport is basically proof of her EU status?

2. I guess there is some debate as to whether or not going to Estonia would be preferable or not. To be frank, I think we prefer Spain or France. As I understand it, that would not be a problem.

3. I also understand that we must go together to apply for residency and a work visa. Does this mean we can just buy tickets to Spain or France, check into a hotel, apply for papers, and then start looking for work, and a place to live? At that point, my wife can return to the States to continue her job for the following year or so, while I hunt around on my own for work in Europe? How long is the typical time frame for a residency visa and/or a work visa under these circumstances? A year? 2 years? 5 years?

4. As far as documentation goes, I am assuming that our passports, and an apostilled copy of our marriage certificate from California is basically it?

Using your numbering;
1. Yes, a passport is generally acceptable as proof of citizenship, so she would not need any other form of ID.
2. Go whereever you want, you do not have to go to Estonia if you do not want to.
3. You have misunderstood this point. If you obtain residency (and thus working authorisation) through marriage to an EU citizen, she must be with you, physically present in the country and exercising her rights as an EU citizen. This means that, she must be working, studying, or financially self-sufficient (e.g. a housewife but you, her husband, are working and can cover her costs), in whichever country you wish to remain. She cannot up and leave after you obtain your residence card. I believe that once she does that, you would probably become without legal residency.

(However, it would be interesting to find out the rule on if she were to spend a minimal amount of time in the EU - e.g. one month every three months - but returned to the US to work, but that is taking a major risk. What do others think?)

So, if you want to apply based on marriage to an EU citizen, she needs to be in the EU. Otherwise, apply for a general work permit, which would not be based on your relationship.

4. Not sure.

I have a question for other board members. As she is Estonian, is he entitled to move to countries such as France, who, as I recall, put in place certain restrictions on A8 countries in 2004? Have the restrictions been lifted now?

[prudence1]

I really appreciate forums as we try to make our ways through the bureaucratic nightmares we find ourselves. I'm trying to make sense of the various immigration regulations that apply to a EU and US couple with regards to living within the EU.

I am an EU Citizen (British), my spouse and child are American. We currently live in the US. Our employer, a US institution, wants to send him to work with colleagues in Italy for approximately 6 months. He would continue to be paid in the US by the US institution, not by the Italian partners.

My rough understanding from this website: http://www.esteri.it/visti/home_eng.asp is that I do not need a visa to electively reside in Italy. My husband would need to apply for the schengen visa, but would not as my spouse need to provide information about his financial support. Reading the Directive regarding EU citizen's rights to reside it seems to concur for the most part. His work is worried that he should actually apply for a self employment visa, I'm not sure if this is necessary. Thoughts?

[JAJ]

Hi All,

I am new to this forum. Thanks in advance.

I am Korean-American w/naturalized US citizenship and US passport. My wife is an Estonian citizen w/EU passport, and recently got a US green card.

Does she want to keep her green card? That may be problematic if she is living outside the United States.

[sakura]

I really appreciate forums as we try to make our ways through the bureaucratic nightmares we find ourselves. I'm trying to make sense of the various immigration regulations that apply to a EU and US couple with regards to living within the EU.

I am an EU Citizen (British), my spouse and child are American. We currently live in the US. Our employer, a US institution, wants to send him to work with colleagues in Italy for approximately 6 months. He would continue to be paid in the US by the US institution, not by the Italian partners.

My rough understanding from this website: http://www.esteri.it/visti/home_eng.asp is that I do not need a visa to electively reside in Italy. My husband would need to apply for the schengen visa, but would not as my spouse need to provide information about his financial support. Reading the Directive regarding EU citizen's rights to reside it seems to concur for the most part. His work is worried that he should actually apply for a self employment visa, I'm not sure if this is necessary. Thoughts?

Since you're British, he can apply under the European free movement for an EU residence card based on marriage to an EU citizen. I don't know what it is called in Italy. I suggest you do a search for posts by "Richard66", who is British with a non-EU spouse residing in Italy. Seeing as it is for such a short period, however, maybe Richard66 (or others) can advise on whether it is necessary for them to apply for a residence card at all?

BTW, your child...is s/he also British? If so, you should get a passport sorted out before travelling to Italy.

[prudence1]

Thanks sakura, will try to connect with Richard66. I did see his name on several threads.

No, our daughter is not British. My very rough reading of the British Home Office's regulations is that at 21 months old it is too late to apply for my daughter to become a British Citizen, http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... ornabroad/
I am kicking myself for not applying in the first year. I just didn't know, had always been told that it was about parentage, informally. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try to give them a call and ask.

[Wanderer]

Thanks sakura, will try to connect with Richard66. I did see his name on several threads.

No, our daughter is not British. My very rough reading of the British Home Office's regulations is that at 21 months old it is too late to apply for my daughter to become a British Citizen, http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... ornabroad/
I am kicking myself for not applying in the first year. I just didn't know, had always been told that it was about parentage, informally. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try to give them a call and ask.

As far as I'm aware your child is British (by decent) and fully entitled to be a BC.

[Richard66]

t's not a simple as just going - u;ll need whatever the Spaniards or Italians call what we in the UK call the EEA Family Permit.

Not really: If you are not a visa national you need nothing in Italy: just come and apply.

The law specifies all you need is a valid entry visa, if required.

[Richard66]

My rough understanding from this website: http://www.esteri.it/visti/home_eng.asp is that I do not need a visa to electively reside in Italy. My husband would need to apply for the schengen visa, but would not as my spouse need to provide information about his financial support. Reading the Directive regarding EU citizen's rights to reside it seems to concur for the most part. His work is worried that he should actually apply for a self employment visa, I'm not sure if this is necessary. Thoughts?

If you have a British passport and your husband and child are American you just come. For him to get work visa for Italy will be well-nigh impossible and will take months.

Once you arrive you must register at the town hall in the city where you will be living. As you will not be employed (but he will) you will need to sign a declaration that the family earns a certain sum (more than €5,000 less than €10,000: I will need to check). So far you do not need to demonstrate it: just declare it.

For your husband, you will need to go the the local Questura (if anyone tells you to do it by post, knock them on the head! Unless you are prepared to wait for 2 years, do not do it by post, ever!) and apply for a Carta di Soggiorno within 3 months of his arrival. It should be valid for 5 years. It might be issued within hours (my wife's was) or may take a year.

For your child, go to the closest British Embassy and claim citizenship for him! Or are you Britsh by descent?

[sakura]

Thanks sakura, will try to connect with Richard66. I did see his name on several threads.

No, our daughter is not British. My very rough reading of the British Home Office's regulations is that at 21 months old it is too late to apply for my daughter to become a British Citizen, http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... ornabroad/
I am kicking myself for not applying in the first year. I just didn't know, had always been told that it was about parentage, informally. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try to give them a call and ask.

It isn't too late at all. All the authorities (and us on this board!) need to know is how you obtained British citizenship. Was it through birth (in the UK, overseas, etc), naturalisation, registration, etc? And your age (or, if you don't wish to tell, were you born - in the UK - before 1983?)?

[prudence1]

You guys are brilliant! Thanks. Lets see, I am British. I was registered with the Office of Her Majestry's Consulate in Copenhagen as a newborn babe to British born parents in the late 60's and lived in England for 20 years before moving to the US as an adult. I am a British by birth. The home office has a piece in there about declaring my daughter's claim to citizenship before she turned a year.

"the application is made within 12 months of the child's birth."
but it sounds like the experience is that it doesn't really matter. I think I should give it a go.

Richard66,
Thanks for the input regarding work visas, practicalities of visas and permissions and for coming here to give feedback. It is much appreciated. This is what I suspected, but needed to hear it from people who had dealt with the reality! I'm curious as to why there is an upper limit on what we earn. Is this a monthly or yearly sum? As our income will be deposited in US banks, I wonder if just having a lump sum in an Italian bank would suffice.

[Wanderer]

You guys are brilliant! Thanks. Lets see, I am British. I was registered with the Office of Her Majestry's Consulate in Copenhagen as a newborn babe to British born parents in the late 60's and lived in England for 20 years before moving to the US as an adult. I am a British by birth.

Doesn't that make British by Decent, ie not born in UK?

[sakura]

You guys are brilliant! Thanks. Lets see, I am British. I was registered with the Office of Her Majestry's Consulate in Copenhagen as a newborn babe to British born parents in the late 60's and lived in England for 20 years before moving to the US as an adult. I am a British by birth. The home office has a piece in there about declaring my daughter's claim to citizenship before she turned a year.

"the application is made within 12 months of the child's birth."
but it sounds like the experience is that it doesn't really matter. I think I should give it a go.

Well...it is a little more complicated than I thought! Your child doesn't appear to be automatically British. However, I will let others explain the policy, since this is an area that I'm unfamiliar with.

[Richard66]

Thanks for the input regarding work visas, practicalities of visas and permissions and for coming here to give feedback. It is much appreciated. This is what I suspected, but needed to hear it from people who had dealt with the reality! I'm curious as to why there is an upper limit on what we earn. Is this a monthly or yearly sum? As our income will be deposited in US banks, I wonder if just having a lump sum in an Italian bank would suffice.

Well, I can tell you this is the case, Prudence! When I came to Italy I was single. I married a Russian in Italy while she was on a tourist visa and she got her residence card just like that. No one made her go back to Russia to apply for a family reunion visa! This seems a more complicated reality than yours... If you want confirmation of all this give this forum a try: www.tuttostranieri.it/forum They do speak English.

For the sum, as you are a family, it is acceptable if he is the one who has it and not you. They do not care, as long as someone can prove that the family can maintain itself.

What you will need is to have a certified and legalised copy of your marriage certificate, though any document that proves your relationship should suffice. This has to be done at the Italian consulate at the place where the marriage took place. You also need health insurance for the duration of the stay. You can even get it here.

There is no upper limit: there is a lower annual limit and so far there is no need to demonstrate anything: you just declare it. Even if there is, a credid card will do.

I quote you from the site of the Italian police (the ones who will be issuing your husband's and daughter's residence card. If she is younger than 14 she will be included in your husband's card, if not, she will have her own.

http://www.poliziadistato.it/pds/ps/imm ... ni_ue.html

Per periodi superiori ai 3 mesi è necessario iscriversi all'anagrafe(pdf 19 Kb) del comune di residenza.
Per l’iscrizione è necessario (...) è necessario dimostrare la disponibilità di risorse economiche sufficienti al soggiorno ed essere titolari di un'assicurazione sanitaria.

Per i soggiorni di durata superiore a tre mesi, i familiari (...) non comunitari del cittadino comunitario devono chiedere la carta di soggiorno, presentando domanda presso la Questura.
Alla domanda si allegano i seguenti documenti: documento d'identità o passaporto ed eventuale visto d'ingresso, documento che attesti la qualità di familiare, l'attestato della richiesta d'iscrizione anagrafica del familiare del cittadino comunitario.

The documents for you are:

Passport,
Health insurance
Financial resources
(a place to live, though they do not request a rent contract: they will send someone to check if you really live at the address you declare.)

The documents for your husband and daughter are:

Passport of the person making the request with entry visa IF REQUIRED (visa nationals)
Documents establishing your family relationship
A document attesting you (Prudence) have made a request for residence at the town hall. The receipt should do

When they have the residence card, you will need to return with it to the town hall to complete their registration.

I am afraid you are British by descent, unless your parents were in Crown service or working for the EU. In this case, your daughter will not be a British citizen. I can tell you that one to, as I am in the same boat.

[prudence1]

Thank you so much! Yes British by descent. Funny how we perceive ourselves isn't it. I just think of it as British by birth. I'm not entitled to Danish citizenship by birth location as neither of my parents were Danish.

I will check out that website. I'm afraid I speak no Italian, yet!
I just had an interesting conversation with an Italian at the consulate in Los Angeles who told me that I needed to contact the British Embassy and that Britain was NOT part of the EU. I assumed he actually meant Schnegen states, but he persisted and said no as a Brit I was not a citizen of the EU. I found this a little concerning. I think I'll try another consulate, but I'm pretty sure I have to go through there for the area of the US we're in.

[Richard66]

This is a very common misconception: I do not know how many times I have heard it.

I also find this "descent" thing strange. It was all right in the days of Empire, but now... Here where I live no one believes I cannot pass citizenship to my children and, if you have seen my posts, you will see how dramatic the thing can get.

[prudence1]

Oh, I just got this....from the Italian Consulate via email:

Please be informed that since you are a citizen of one of the European Union countries, your daughter will also have the citizenship of your country and therefore she will not require a visa for Italy. Your husband who is a US citizen and who will be working in Italy will require a work visa. For the required documents you will need to view the webpage of the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs

I'm not impressed right now. Sigh.

It was all right in the days of Empire, but now...

I know, I thought it was if your grandfather or your father was...AH well.