Certificate of nationality for Irish child of non-EU parents

strongbow · Post by **strongbow** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:39 pm

I have a query in relation to the Certificate of Nationality which is issued for children who are eligible for Irish citizenship on the basis of their birth in the island of ireland but who have non-EU parents(who have been meeting the criteria of "reckonable residence"). See website
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categ ... or_descent

My baby was born here in November and has been issued an Irish passport by the Dept of Foreign Affairs after checking the eligibility etc. This was issued since I fulfilled all the residency requirements needed for him to get the same. Both my wife and I are non-EU citizens.

I wanted to find out if I can apply for a Certificate of Nationality as well based on the website http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categ ... or_descent

OR is this just applicable to people who are living in Northern Ireland??

reason for asking this is;
I am getting naturalised and will be acquiring an Irish passport in the next few months. Once I get the irish passport I will have to give up my current national passport which has all the GNIB stamps etc. proving my eligibility.
3 years down the line when I need to renew my baby's passport I won't be having my old national passport etc proviing the baby's irish-citizenship eligibility. So will they issue the second passport for my child based on his current Irish passport or will I need to provide a document stating that he is an Irish citizen(which the certificate of natinoality does).

I am confused as to whether the Certificate of Nationality is applicable only for Northern Ireland born children of non-EU parents, otherwise I might get one for my baby now rather than later.

opengl · Post by **opengl** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:34 am

Hi Strongbow

You will not need to send the passport again at the time of renewal. I renewed my son's passport few months back. All you need to send it the original passport of your son and his birth certificate for renewal.

Once the first passport is issued that itself is proof of the Irish citizenship.

Regards

Post by **JAJ** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:57 am

Section 28 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004, as amended, states that:

28.â€”(1) Any person who claims to be an Irish citizen, other than a naturalised Irish citizen, may apply to the Minister or, if resident outside he island of Ireland, to any Irish diplomatic officer or consular officer for a certificate, of nationality stating that the applicant is, at the date of the certificate, an Irish citizen; and the Minister or officer, if satisfied thatâ€”
(a) the applicant is an Irish citizen, and
(b) the issue of the certificate is necessary in all the circumstances of the case, may issue a certificate of nationality to him accordingly.

(2) A document purporting to be a certificate of nationality, duly authenticated by the seal of the Minister or of a diplomatic or consular officer shall, until the contrary is proved, be evidence that the person named therein was, at the date thereof, an Irish citizen.

strongbow · Post by **strongbow** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:21 am

opengl, JAJ --thanks for your comments.

JAJ--it seems really clear from the rule you have quoted that I can apply for cert for nationality for my baby.I'll get in touch with DoJ regarding which form to fill etc.

Heybabyy · Post by **Heybabyy** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:55 am

I think to renew your child's passport, you just need to present the old one. That's it. No need to prove your citizenship etc.

Post by **JAJ** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:16 am

Heybabyy wrote:I think to renew your child's passport, you just need to present the old one. That's it. No need to prove your citizenship etc.

But helpful to have it, in case passport is lost or stolen?

strongbow · Post by **strongbow** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:43 pm

I think it will be definitely useful to have. I did write to DoJ asking for which form is to be filled in but never received a reply.
In January I'll fill up Form A (on the link here http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/NoticeCB ... iceCBI.pdf ) and send it off to the DoJ.

strongbow · Post by **strongbow** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:22 am

Folks,
I seem to be having a problem in getting DoJ to understand my request. I am totally confused.

I applied to the DoJ with a request for obtain Certificate of Nationality [NOT Certificate of Naturalisation] for my son who is Irish by birth (due to the fact that at least one of his parents were living and working in Ireland for at least 3 out of the 4 years before his birth). I clearly explained this in a covering letter to the DoJ.

Note that the Certificate of Nationality is a purely optional document as he already has an Irish passport, but it will put his nationality beyond doubt.

There is no prescribed form for this for non-EU parents of children.
Today I got a letter from the DoJ asking me to fill up Form 9 - Certificate of Naturalisation for a minor.

My doubts:
===========
1. Why should I be filling a form for Certificate of Naturalisation for Minor, as he is Irish by birth. Note that Form 9 states that the child needs to be living in ireland for 3 yrs for this.
2. The Form 9 has questions on date of arrival in state, GNIB registration card no. etc, none of which are applicable to him as he was born here and due to the fact that he satisfied the conditions for obtaining Irish citizenship. This makes this form pretty much inapplicable for him.

Has any non-EU national here applied for Certificate of nationality for their Irish children??

agniukas · Post by **agniukas** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:35 am

If your child has an Irish passport, no further proof is needed in relation to his Irish nationality. No other documents are needed.
If a child was born in Ireland before 01/01/2005, his birth cert is enough in determining or proving his Irish nationality.
Naturalisation section does not issue any letters proving child's nationality as Irish. it would be determined by Dep of Foreign Affairs, who are issuing Irish passport.

strongbow · Post by **strongbow** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:43 am

agniukas,
you are right in that his nationality has already been established by the Dept of Foreign Affairs. However there is an optional certificate of Nationality that can be requested. see the post from JAJ earlier

Section 28 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004, as amended, states that:

28.â€”(1) Any person who claims to be an Irish citizen, other than a naturalised Irish citizen, may apply to the Minister or, if resident outside he island of Ireland, to any Irish diplomatic officer or consular officer for a certificate, of nationality stating that the applicant is, at the date of the certificate, an Irish citizen; and the Minister or officer, if satisfied thatâ€”
(a) the applicant is an Irish citizen, and
(b) the issue of the certificate is necessary in all the circumstances of the case, may issue a certificate of nationality to him accordingly.

(2) A document purporting to be a certificate of nationality, duly authenticated by the seal of the Minister or of a diplomatic or consular officer shall, until the contrary is proved, be evidence that the person named therein was, at the date thereof, an Irish citizen.

tom4 · Post by **tom4** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:13 pm

Hi Strongbow,
Just my 2 cents worth...

I think the crucial phrase is:
"(b) the issue of the certificate is necessary in all the circumstances of the case".

Arguably, it isn't necessary, since the passport is proof of identity/nationality.
If I was the civil servant answering your letter, that would be enough for me not to bother with it any further.

strongbow · Post by **strongbow** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:19 pm

tom4, i do get your point and I also understand the civil servant mentality. But the main reason for asking the certificate of Nationality is

i. he obtained this on the basis of my residency here 3 years prior to his birth. for proving this I had to send my original passports and GNIB card.
ii. Once I got naturalised I had to surrender my original GNIB card, so that's one documentary evidence gone from my side.
iii. Same applies for other evidence of my residency in state etc

If 10 to 20 yrs from now, if he has to prove nationality again and at that stage he is not resident in ireland I fear that he will run into problems. I am just looking for this Certificate of Nationality to put his nationality beyond any doubt.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:16 pm

strongbow wrote:But the main reason for asking the certificate of Nationality is

i. he obtained this on the basis of my residency here 3 years prior to his birth. for proving this I had to send my original passports and GNIB card.
ii. Once I got naturalised I had to surrender my original GNIB card, so that's one documentary evidence gone from my side.
iii. Same applies for other evidence of my residency in state etc

If 10 to 20 yrs from now, if he has to prove nationality again and at that stage he is not resident in ireland I fear that he will run into problems. I am just looking for this Certificate of Nationality to put his nationality beyond any doubt.

Hi strongbow,

Did you include all of this in your letter?

strongbow · Post by **strongbow** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:50 pm

yes I did..still they directed me to another form!!

agniukas · Post by **agniukas** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:57 pm

i. he obtained this on the basis of my residency here 3 years prior to his birth. for proving this I had to send my original passports and GNIB card.
ii. Once I got naturalised I had to surrender my original GNIB card, so that's one documentary evidence gone from my side.
iii. Same applies for other evidence of my residency in state etc

even if you are naturalised and have to return your GNIB card, you still have all the stamps in your original passport, proving that you were residing in Ireland. make a copy or few if you are afraid you will lose it.
Even if you do not have that, you can get a letter of reckonable residence from your local immigration officer or gnib.
once you get irish nationality, there is a permanent record, that you are an Irish citizen.
For example, if you loose your passport, it does not mean that you lose your nationality and have to to apply again to be naturalised. Of course, unless the nationality was obtained by fraud and it is being reconsidered later...
so in relation to your child, that certificate would definately NOT be very urgent or important, as he / she already has a passport and will not have any problems renewing it in the future.

yes I did..still they directed me to another form!!

seeing that there are not many cases that really require such type of the cert (you are probably the first), I wouldn't be surprised, if there is actually nobody assigned in processing such kind of requests and noone is actually aware of such a thing.

strongbow · Post by **strongbow** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:32 am

Even if you do not have that, you can get a letter of reckonable residence from your local immigration officer or gnib.

Any idea how to get this?

tom4 · Post by **tom4** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:37 am

Hi Strongbow,

If you have LTR, then your approval letter would be proof of 5 years of reckonable residence, would it not?

I am keeping mine safe for exactly that reason.

Same could be said of your naturalisation approval.

This might be a bit of a tenuous connection, but they are all from the department concerned.

Post by **JAJ** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:22 am

strongbow wrote:yes I did..still they directed me to another form!!

Which suggests they haven't got a clue about what you are asking for.

You could try calling up, or alternatively, write to your member of parliament asking him or her to raise the issue with the relevant Minister.

strongbow · Post by **strongbow** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:33 pm

i sent a reply back with my queries and explanation pointing out the difference between a cert of naturalisation and a cert of nationality..They haven't come back to me after that..I'll wait for a few more days and then see.

IrelandHopeful · Post by **IrelandHopeful** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:15 pm

my 1 cent...

This is a simple & straight forward issue which you are bringing in complexities to.

However, if you are in doubt, you can consult an immigration lawyer or visit the INIS office in person for advice.

strongbow · Post by **strongbow** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:25 pm

Not sure what you mean by complexities? Agree that it is a simple issue but INIS does not take any personal callers, so post is the only way I can correspond.

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Certificate of nationality for Irish child of non-EU parents

Certificate of nationality for Irish child of non-EU parents