GNIB - get your act together in Dublin airport

[Ben]

The other night my wife and I flew in to Dublin airport from Britain.

I'm EU, she's non-EU and in possession of Stamp 4 EUFam. We live in Ireland.

In accordance with Article 24 of Directive 2004/38/EC, we joined the EU passport holders queue.

Equal treatment
1. Subject to such specific provisions as are expressly provided for in the Treaty and secondary
law, all Union citizens residing on the basis of this Directive in the territory of the host Member
State shall enjoy equal treatment with the nationals of that Member State within the scope of the
Treaty. The benefit of this right shall be extended to family members who are not nationals of a
Member State and who have the right of residence or permanent residence.

I presented to the GNIB officer our two passports and her Stamp 4 EUFam Residence Card.

"She has to go to the non-EU queue and get a stamp." The officer told me, sternly.

"My wife and I are entering Ireland in accordance with the EU Free Movement regs. We can use this queue and her passport is not to be stamped." I replied.

(note, Article 5(3)):

Right of entry
3. The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit stamp in the passport of family members
who are not nationals of a Member State provided that they present the residence card provided for
in Article 10.

"She has to go to the non-EU queue and get a stamp." The officer repeated, more sternly.

"As I explained, my wife and I are entering Ireland in accordance with the EU Free Movement regs." I reiterated.

"She has to go to the non-EU queue and get a stamp." The officer shouted.

I asked for the manager.

Manager came (GNIB Detective, was his title), and I explained the provisions of Article 24 and Article 5(3) of the Directive to him. He is not familiar with these provisions!

He went and sought advice / the opinion of.. (wait for it).. the original GNIB officer!

The GNIB Detective (who remained polite at all times, I should add), told me that whilst my wife is "covered" by the EU Free Movement regulations and entitled to enter, it is their procedure that all non-EU passport holders are stamped in.

Since this practice is incompatible with Directive 2004/38/EC, I informed the Detective that my wife's passport will not be stamped and we would not be joining any queue that Irish citizens need not join.

He went away and came back, reiterating how their procedure is to stamp in all non-EU passport holders, without exception.

I informed the Detective that should he be adamant that my wife would be refused entry without a stamp, I will need a note, signed by him, detailing the reason for the stamp. I informed him that steps would then be taken to involve the European Commission in this incident, the GNIB's current practice, and intervention at EU level sought.

Eventually, the Detective agreed to admission sans stamp. But - and this is the important thing - I don't think he ever did understand why.

I will complain to the Garda Ombudsman, to give them a chance to rectify the practices of the GNIB in Dublin airport at national level, without the need to involve the European Commission.

Finally, you may think this is a small matter. Indeed, comparatively, it is. However, regulations are as they are and non-adherence to the Directive is unlawful.

My intention is, and always will be, to ensure that Directive 2004/38/EC is correctly implemented by Ireland at all times and without exception.

[strongbow]

interesting one..fair play to you for standing your ground..If i were in your shoes I don't think I would have had the guts to argue with them!

[Vanadil]

Well done!

[Nehro]

Well done.. This is a good lesson all of us (spouses of EU/Irish) should learn but I doubt if we can stand to immigration officers at Dublin airport everytime we pass through. they seem to employ the thickest people there. As for myself (Spouse to Irish), I've always joined the Non EU queue without a question !!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Good for you for doing this. Somehow the Irish Garda at Dublin airport do not seem very well trained for their job. It is sad, and does not speak highly of how the department is managed.

It is worth carrying a copy of the law
STATUTORY INSTRUMENT S.I. No. 656 of 2006
European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) (No. 2) Regulations 2006
in case you need to show them. You can even leave it with them for future reference.

(4) An immigration officer shall not, at the point of entry, place a stamp in the passport of a qualifying family member who presents to the officer a valid residence card.

[esharknz]

Even I heard from my immigration officer (garda station, outside Dublin) that holders Stamp 4 EUFam would be allowed to go through the EU queue (but Irish-citizen spouses have to go through the non-EU queue and be stamped in). So that's terrible behaviour. Although in my dealings with the government in trying to get a green card from a working holiday visa (they made it sound so simple), then I'd not be surprised they don't know what the law is.

While I'm not yet married to an Irishman (later this year), we were coming back through to Dublin via heathrow recently, and I was told to go through the EU passport queue with my husband-to-be at heathrow (which is a good thing, lots of people I know have been drilled there when trying to travel through to Ireland).

What's worse is that on arrival at Dublin, the non-EU queue literally strecthed for 50-100 metres, so after more than a day on the go, we decided to try our luck and go through the (empty!) EU queue. I was let through after saying we'd flown from Auckland (I think it's because I had a heathrow stamp)

[86ti]

My intention is, and always will be, to ensure that Directive 2004/38/EC is correctly implemented by Ireland at all times and without exception.

Thank you very much benifa for doing that.

We had an IO in Liverpool last year that seemed to be unaware of the rules but a supervisor just standing behind him (probably for training purposes) immediatley resolved the issue. The UK border guards have clear instructions what to do in such situations. I wonder if they Irish wouldn't have something similar?

[swann]

thanks for posting this benifa, and i hope the procedures change very soon. i don't think we would have stand up to it either. *sigh*

[agniukas]

have a read:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news ... 40582.html

maybe that was the problem at the airport

[cork1]

hi benifa,thanks for posting your experience,just did your wife get visa for the uk?

thanks

[Ben]

just did your wife get visa for the uk?

No. She's not a visa required national. But even if she were, she wouldn't need a visa since she has a Residence Card described in Article 10 of the Directive.

[Ben]

have a read:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news ... 40582.html

maybe that was the problem at the airport

Good find, agniukas!

A little ironic though - the article refers to the GNIB "doing their job" at the airport. Clearly in this case - they don't know their job.

[cork1]

thanks for answer,do you know anyone flew to the uk without visa?

[Ben]

thanks for answer,do you know anyone flew to the uk without visa?

Yes I do. My neighbour and his wife. He's British, she's Pakistani. Like us, they live in Ireland where he is exercising a Treaty right, she is the holder of a Stamp 4 EUFam Residence Card. They regularly fly to the UK sans visa.

However, it's important to remember that flights to the UK from Ireland are treated as domestic on arrival in the UK, and passengers do not pass Immigration control at the airport.

[cork1]

thanks so much benifa for you help

[Ben]

Pleasure. (I didn't really do anything).

[calai]

[quote="benifa"]The other night my wife and I flew in to Dublin airport from Britain.

I'm EU, she's non-EU and in possession of Stamp 4 EUFam. We live in Ireland.

In accordance with Article 24 of Directive 2004/38/EC, we joined the EU passport holders queue.
[quote="Article 24"][b]Equal treatment[/b]
1. Subject to such specific provisions as are expressly provided for in the Treaty and secondary
law, all Union citizens residing on the basis of this Directive in the territory of the host Member
State shall enjoy [b]equal treatment with the nationals of that Member State[/b] within the scope of the
Treaty. The benefit of this right [b]shall be extended to family members[/b] who are not nationals of a
Member State and who have the right of residence or permanent residence.[/quote]

I presented to the GNIB officer our two passports and her Stamp 4 EUFam Residence Card.

[color=blue]"She has to go to the non-EU queue and get a stamp."[/color] The officer told me, sternly.

[color=green]"My wife and I are entering Ireland in accordance with the EU Free Movement regs. We can use this queue and her passport is not to be stamped."[/color] I replied.

(note, Article 5(3)):
[quote="Article 5"][b]Right of entry[/b]
3. The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit stamp in the passport of family members
who are not nationals of a Member State provided that they present the residence card provided for
in Article 10.[/quote]

[color=blue]"She has to go to the non-EU queue and get a stamp."[/color] The officer repeated, more sternly.

[color=green]"As I explained, my wife and I are entering Ireland in accordance with the EU Free Movement regs."[/color] I reiterated.
[color=blue]
"She has to go to the non-EU queue and get a stamp."[/color] The officer shouted.

I asked for the manager.

Manager came (GNIB Detective, was his title), and I explained the provisions of Article 24 and Article 5(3) of the Directive to him. [color=red]He is not familiar with these provisions![/color]

He went and sought advice / the opinion of.. (wait for it).. the original GNIB officer!

The GNIB Detective (who remained polite at all times, I should add), told me that whilst my wife is "covered" by the EU Free Movement regulations and entitled to enter, it is their [u]procedure[/u] that all non-EU passport holders are stamped in.

Since this practice is incompatible with Directive 2004/38/EC, I informed the Detective that my wife's passport will not be stamped and we would not be joining any queue that Irish citizens need not join.

He went away and came back, reiterating how their [u]procedure[/u] is to stamp in [u]all[/u] non-EU passport holders, without exception.

I informed the Detective that should he be adamant that my wife would be refused entry without a stamp, I will need a note, signed by him, detailing the reason for the stamp. I informed him that steps would then be taken to involve the European Commission in this incident, the GNIB's current practice, and intervention at EU level sought.

Eventually, the Detective agreed to admission sans stamp. But - and this is the important thing - I don't think he ever did understand [i]why[/i].

I will complain to the Garda Ombudsman, to give them a chance to rectify the practices of the GNIB in Dublin airport at national level, without the need to involve the European Commission.

Finally, you may think this is a small matter. Indeed, comparatively, it is. However, regulations are as they are and non-adherence to the Directive is unlawful.

[u]My intention is, and always will be, to ensure that Directive 2004/38/EC is correctly implemented by Ireland at all times and without exception.[/u][/quote]

Your wife's case is not something uncommon but your action is
I myself had different experience at Dublin airport, GNIB and going to Belfast because im British national who is non white and do not have the right to live in UK/EU. However, the grey area is UK has different interpretation of citizenship and nationality compare to EU which made the whole issue more complicated. To put it simple, i was born as Citizen of UK and Colonies (so did my parents and most people in UK) before BNA 1981. As i was not born in the UK and my parents did not get a British passport before 1960s, we lost our right to UK/EU citizenship subsequently. According to UK law, im British national but not British citizen while im classified as EU citizen but not EU national for community purpose.

Holding a British passport, every Irish IO asked me to go through EU line at Dublin airport, i was even picked from a long non EU queue before just because the IO could see the coat of arm. However, most IO could tell im not EU citizen and i shall be stamped (most UK/EU IO don't know the above EU definition). Some officers did ask me nicely to go to the other line before while i insist im a holder of a EU passport and was asked to queue up at EU line. No issues for the last few years. My passports was never stamped before 2003 and i was not even asked any questions sometimes (until now).

In 2006 i came back to Ireland on a work holiday visa, the IO did not realize my status and let me go through the line in 2 seconds. I thought i'd better get an entry stamp for the GNIB guys so i went back to the IO to ask for an entry stamp. After showing my visa and 10 mins of explanation, he asked his colleague 'why are we stamping this British national and why the hell she was given a visa? As the IO has never seen anything like this, he gave me an entry stamp as i asked.

I flew back from Germany to Dublin before Christmas and i was the only other non EU citizen on the plane so i took advantage to go through the non EU line as there were 80+ pax in front of the EU line. I was stopped by 3 officers (DAA staff, not IO) to go back to queue up. They finally believed me after minutes of explanation. I dont think i could be 'allowed' to join the non EU line if i am white

The GNIB guys are more informed but I could not renew my GNIB card last time when i showed my brand new passport issued by IPS. i heard the conversation of the IO with his colleague that he insisted me to come back with an old passport or a GNIB card because he was not sure what stamp to give me. I returned with my GNIB card later, got my stamp 1 but the IO was surprised to find out i was on stamp 1 before as a student . He asked his colleague why and his colleague said it was ok after looking at the cover of my passport.

I have travelled to Belfast over 50 times by aircoach/bus eireann and was stopped by garda between the border for a check (80% of the cases before 2008). I was never asked any question but the garda should note the GNIB guy has written down my GNIB card number on the info page which suggest im not EU citizen. Not sure if they were all blind...

[Ben]

I will complain to the Garda Ombudsman, to give them a chance to rectify the practices of the GNIB in Dublin airport at national level, without the need to involve the European Commission.

I complained to the Garda Ombudsman, who rejected my complaint as inadmissible.

I then wrote to the European Commission who responded in a rather disappointing, wishy-washy manor. You can download the reply from Ernesto Bianchi here:
http://kotekbesar.com/10591%20B%20Wilson.pdf

Interestingly, Bianchi states "I share your view that third country family members travelling with EU citizens should be entitled to use these <EU> lanes.".

Should be entitled, is not the same as are entitled.

[Obie]

I will complain to the Garda Ombudsman, to give them a chance to rectify the practices of the GNIB in Dublin airport at national level, without the need to involve the European Commission.

I complained to the Garda Ombudsman, who rejected my complaint as inadmissible.

I then wrote to the European Commission who responded in a rather disappointing, wishy-washy manor. You can download the reply from Ernesto Bianchi here:
http://kotekbesar.com/10591%20B%20Wilson.pdf

Interestingly, Bianchi states "I share your view that third country family members travelling with EU citizens should be entitled to use these <EU> lanes.".

Should be entitled, is not the same as are entitled.

Excellent Ben. This makes us know where we stand.

It seems like an endorsement and legalisation of the actions of the Irish Immigration Authority.

I would have thought as the directive advocates for equal treatment for EEA national and their non-eea family members, they should essentially be entitled to use the same desk.

How wrong could i be.

[Tuner]

I will complain to the Garda Ombudsman, to give them a chance to rectify the practices of the GNIB in Dublin airport at national level, without the need to involve the European Commission.

I complained to the Garda Ombudsman, who rejected my complaint as inadmissible.

I then wrote to the European Commission who responded in a rather disappointing, wishy-washy manor. You can download the reply from Ernesto Bianchi here:
http://kotekbesar.com/10591%20B%20Wilson.pdf

Interestingly, Bianchi states "I share your view that third country family members travelling with EU citizens should be entitled to use these <EU> lanes.".

Should be entitled, is not the same as are entitled.

I think you were wrong, Benifa. All your story and actions were wrong.
Read attentevely what u got in your answer. THe core phrase is "Ireland is not boundby it or subject to its application" (regarding Schengen Border's Code and some other regulations).
This is an old story with all this Schengen Border's Code and its been discussed a lot before and there's a lot of controversy about that.

[Ben]

I think you were wrong, Benifa. All your story and actions were wrong.
Read attentevely what u got in your answer. THe core phrase is "Ireland is not boundby it or subject to its application" (regarding Schengen Border's Code and some other regulations).
This is an old story with all this Schengen Border's Code and its been discussed a lot before and there's a lot of controversy about that.

But my complaint was unrelated to Schengen. My complaint was in relation to the misapplication of Directive 2004/38/EC. The GNIB officer seemed to think that my non-EEA national spouse, who presented to him her passport together with her Stamp 4 EUFam Residence Card, must receive an entry stamp in her passport as a condition of entry. This is in direct contradiction of Article 5(3) of the Directive:

Right of entry
3. The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit stamp in the passport of family members
who are not nationals of a Member State provided that they present the residence card provided for
in Article 10.

In addition, I asked the Commission in my letter to them, whether such a family member is entitled to use the "EU" queue at passport control, together with their EEA national family member. You will see from Bianchi's reply that he believes they should be so entitled.

I would be interested in your views as to why you feel that I am wrong and that all my story and actions were wrong.

[ca.funke]

have a read:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news ... 40582.html

maybe that was the problem at the airport

Thanks for the link!

Reminds me of third-world practices

Are these folks serious?

[ca.funke]

I then wrote to the European Commission who responded in a rather disappointing, wishy-washy manor. You can download the reply from Ernesto Bianchi here:
http://kotekbesar.com/10591%20B%20Wilson.pdf

Interestingly, Bianchi states "I share your view that third country family members travelling with EU citizens should be entitled to use these <EU> lanes.".

Should be entitled, is not the same as are entitled.

This is exactly why I turned from a big EU-fan into one of their worst opponents.

They tell you about all the rights you supposedly have, but if you want to really use them... good luck, that´s your problem...

Deeply frustrated regards from Switzerland (where my taxes are surely used more wisely) ,

Christian

[acme4242]

They tell you about all the rights you supposedly have, but if you want to really use them... good luck, that´s your problem...

ca.funke nailed it, when I tried to get my lawful rigths respected by
Irish Dept of Justice I was told the following

If you have a current or pending application for an Irish visa, this application can be processed in the normal way by either providing any material requested by the Irish visa authorities or alternatively submitting to the authorities the reason(s) why, in your view, you are not be in a position to provide such material.

Apart from following the steps listed above which are applicable to an actual or pending visa application, it would not be appropriate to provide what would in effect be legal advice on the content of the website material submitted in your emails. I can only emphasise that every visa application made to the Irish authorities is dealt with on an individual basis and in accordance with Irish and European law
Dan Kelleher

Read this reply as,
Do as your told, and I'm not giving you any of these rights you
quote from EU commission web sites

[Italybound]

Thank you so much for following this up.

You have no idea how much this annoys me, as I am non EU and the husband is Irish.

When we go back to Australia the sign says Australian passport holder and their Families, and my husband always goes through with me.

Not only do I think it contravenes the directive, I think it contravenes the constitution of ireland in particular Article 41.1:

Article 41
1. 1° The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

2° The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State.

Seperating couplesa nd families as they return is marking them out as a second classs family to an 'Irish' family.

Are the dumber non-stamp wielding garda at the EU window? Do they need a special training course?

I would also think it contravenes the rights of the family. It is alright for me it is just the 2 of us, but what of families with young children?

I think they do this to punish their own people for daring to look outside their own little gene pool.