HELP ME PLEASE

[FM]

Hello Everybody........

I need some help regarding my settlement visa, I got married in UK last year (I was there on Student visa), I came back to Pakistan for reception (Walima) and other family functions with my wife. As my visa was finished so we apply for visa from Pakistan and got refused. The reason on the refusal letter was that they don't accept Islamic marriage certificate of wedding (Nikkah) took place in UK. So in that case they are not sure that we really got married or not. (We also submitted all other requirements like itemised telephone bills, wedding, nikkah and reception pictures and other documents that are required)
I haven't got any friends, relatives or even an acquaintance been in this kind of refusal or rejection. So I am wondering anyone got any knowledge on this kind of refusal. That how can I assure them about authenticity of our wedding? Is there any way to convince them?

By the way I am not going for appeal, I am going for fresh submission.

Please help Me.

Thanks

[John]

So in that case they are not sure that we really got married or not.

In the eyes of your religion the two of you are married, but as the two of you did not get legally married, in the eyes of the UK Government you are not married.

So it is not "that they don't accept Islamic marriage certificate of wedding (Nikkah) took place in UK", they accept that it took place, but don't recognise it as a legal marriage.

Your wife is in Pakistan at the moment? If so the two of you need to register a legal marriage there, one that the UK will recognise as a legal marriage. After that you should re-apply for the spouse visa.

This subject has come up previously on this Board. There is a procedure that the two of you need to go through in Pakistan with your local Muslim Council. Given that you are already married religiously it is not a standard procedure, but nevertheless you end up with a marriage certificate acceptable to the UK Government.

When marrying at the Mosque in the UK, did no one explain that it was not recognised as a marriage under UK law, and that you would need to get married at a Register Office?

[batleykhan]

Can you let us have the exact wording as stated on your refusal notice,before someone can advise you correctly.

I think we have had a similar problem on this forum, some 6 months ago, where the marriage took place in the UK and the application was refused because it was not recognised that a legal marriage took place.

[FM]

Thanks for your replies..........the exact refusal wording was something like this.................." As this marriage certificate is not recognized in uk law, so we are not sure that you are legally married to each other" ECO has also given some reference of some law from Paragraph 281 of immigration law...............

@ John.............no they never told us anything about anything...........about registeration of nikkah.....but to be very honest it our mistake .... we should know the law because its our problem.....but the thinng is mistake is made and i don't know what to do now..............getting registered in Pakistan is an option.....but i am still little confused about certain things...........

1) They already got my previous marriage information..........don't you think its gonna contradict.
2) on application form which date i have to show Actuall wedding date or date of registaration in Pakistan....

OMG...........its really a mind twister..................

[batleykhan]

They already got my previous marriage information..........don't you think its gonna contradict.

They are not prepared to accept your previous marriage as being legal and the information that you have already supplied is therefore irrelevant and null and void. They can not use that against you in any subsequent application that you make.

2) on application form which date i have to show Actuall wedding date or date of registaration in Pakistan...

As you have stated that you are going to make a fresh application and not appeal against it, then I suggest what you do is to carry out a proper and legal marriage (nikkah) again in Pakistan. You should get the marriage certificate there and then. Have it translated into English and present it as a document with your latest application.

You have to of course use this date on the new application. You should have no problem with your application as regards to this matter, and as long as everything else is ok, you should get a visa.

[John]

Just to add to what batleykhan has posted, under the terms of the UK's Foreign Marriages Act 1892 the UK recognises as legally valid any marriage that takes place outside the UK that is recognised as a legal marriage in the country where the marriage takes place.

That is, if you get married in Pakistan, if the country of Pakistan recognises that as a legal marriage, then the UK will also recognise that as a legal marriage.

[FM]

thanks alot both of you.....you guys are doing great job...........just another quick question...........do i have to submitt a cover letter or a statement to explain this whole scenario......i know they dont consider the previous marriage certificate...............but the situation has been changed alot since last time...............i was working part time in uk few months back and got a good bank statement...but now i am out of job....statements are getting thin day by day...........you think this will have any effect at all...


secondly ......what about the first marriage certificate .....do i have to attach that as well......

[John]

do i have to submitt a cover letter or a statement to explain this whole scenario

It cannot do any harm, but of course their records will give details of the previous application, and the reason for its rejection.

.i was working part time in uk few months back and got a good bank statement...but now i am out of job....statements are getting thin day by day...........you think this will have any effect at all...

It needs to be clear that you will not need to claim certain Public Funds. How much are your savings now? And have you a realistic prospect of getting employment in the foreseeable future, given the current financial climate?

Your wife, is she earning? Roughly how much?

[FM]

SHE IS ROUGLY EARNING 1000 POUNDS AFTER TAX AND GOT SAVINGS AS WELL NEARLY 2500 IN CURRENT ACCOUNT AND NEARLY 8K IN SAVINGS...............BUT SHE WENT BACK IN FEB ...SO THIS MEANS STAYED WITH FOR 3 MONTHS................SO IF WE APPLY IN JUNE WE CAN ONLY SHOW PREVIOUS THREE MONTHS WAGE SLIPS..............

AND AS FAR AS ME I HAVE GOT DEGREE IN BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION FROM uNIVERSITY OF BOLTON................AND GOT COUPLE OF YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN dOMINOS AS WELL.............AND WHEN I LEFT THE JOB I WAS ASSISTANT MANAGER FOR MY SHIFTS..............

BUT WHAT IS BASICALLY A JOB OFFER LETTER...............CAN WE GET IT FROM AN EMPLOYER STATING THAT I AM SUITABLE FOR THIS JOB BECAUSE OF PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE OR SOMETHING...............OR ITS JUST AN ADVERTISMENT OF JOB SEARCH PRINTS OUT RELATED TO MY FIELD............


AND AS FAR AS COVER LETTER CONCERN CAN WE USE A SOLICITER FOR THAT.................OR ITS JUST LIKE A PERSONAL STATMENT

[John]

Why are you shouting? On the internet posting in block capitals is equivalent to shouting, and on this board such postings are liable to be deleted without warning.

Based upon what you have posted, about the earnings and the savings, I suspect the financial test will be passed. But it will do no harm to include with the application details of your qualifications and thus earning ability.

[FM]

no mate i am not shouting.................i don't know that rule...............thanks for telling me..............any way thanks for your help, you've been very helpful.................

[FM]

Hi,

I inquired BHC on this address UKHUB.PAKISTANGeneralEnquiries@fco.gov.uk and i got the following reply:

Your marriage certificate clearly states that it is not recognised in UK law there is no other proof that you can provide to BHC. You will have to register your marriage in a civil registration office to be a legal marriage.

I am bit confuse...Is registration of marriage to civil registration office = registration to local union council(attestation from foriegn office ) in Pakistan?

[John]

I am bit confuse...Is registration of marriage to civil registration office = registration to local union council(attestation from foriegn office ) in Pakistan?

As regards a marriage in the UK, to be recognised as a legal marriages it needs to comply with the requirements of the Marriage Act. If a "marriage" takes place in a Place of Public Worship, it will only be legally valid if that Place of Public Worship is registered with the local Register Office.

For some reason I, a non-Muslim, fail to understand, most Mosques in the UK do not so register their premises, meaning that whilst the couple can have their religious marriage in the Mosque, they also need to go to the Register Office to register their legal marriage.

Most UK Christian Churches, Synagogues, etc do register their premises with the Register Office, meaning that a marriage in such a Church etc is both a religious marriage, and also a legal one ..... meaning that the couple are spared the bother of also getting married to the Register Office.

As regards a marriage that happens outside the UK, the UK recognises as a valid legal marriage any marriage that is recognised as legally valid under the laws of the country in which it takes places.

Accordingly if "registration to local union council" in Pakistan is recognised by the Government of Pakistan as a legal marriage, the UK will also recognise that as a legal marriage.

Does that help?

[batleykhan]

In the UK the civil registration is the local Births Death and Marriage registration office. Here you can carry out a civil marraige ceronomy if you do not want to carry it out in a church or temple.

However Muslim marriages (nikkah namma ) are carried out in a mosque, but you then have to visit the above place to formally register it.

In Pakistan, the local Union Council is the equivillant of the above.

If you intend to carry out a marriage ceromony there, you need to register with UC.

You will get a nikkah namah in urdu , which you have to have translated into english and then present it as a document with your application.

Hope this answers your query

[FM]

thats very helpful ...............

My little lack of knowledge caused me alot of trouble..............so in the future all those Muslims couples getting married in Mosques and community centres in front of clerics, should read this documents explaining all the legal impacts of a legal muslim wedding in UK, and mind it the marriage certificate is little different from the normal one......its got a separate box for civil marriage registration.........I hope it helps all of you.


http://www.muslimparliament.org.uk/Docu ... ntract.pdf

[John]

That document is interesting. In particular, top of page 3 :-

For a Muslim marriage to be valid under the laws of England & Wales the marriage must be solemnised either at a mosque registered for the solemnisation of marriages or a civil wedding at a registry office must precede the nikah (Muslim marriage).

-: which must mean that some Mosques are indeed registered with their local Register Office. It is a shame that all, or the great majority, of Mosques do not bother to so register. As said before the great majority of Christian Churches are so registered.

It also means, as far as I can see, given that some Mosques register their premises with the local Register Office, there is no religious reason why a Mosque cannot register. Maybe something Moslems in the UK reading this should take up with their local Mosque .... why doesn't it register its premises with the Register Office ... thereby saving those marrying there the bother of also going to the Register Office to get legally married.

[batleykhan]

They are some mosques who do register with the local authority and do carry out these marriages, but most don't because there isn't enough demand for such. I know in my mosques you'll be lucky if they carry more than two of these ceromonies per year.

We therefore decided that we would register one of the 8 mosques in the town, so all the Islamic marriages could be carried out there without the need to then register at the Registry office.

Unfortunately this doesn't work most of the time because of the different denomination of mosques within a town or city. Some Muslims are very very fussy about this issue, thus leading to most of the mosques not being registered to carry out such functions

[John]

OK, that makes sense, although I have to say that the (small) Church I attend is registered with the Register Office, and there is probably only one marriage there every two years on average.

But looking again at the words I quoted earlier, there is something I did not pick up on earlier. That is, "a civil wedding at a registry office must precede the nikah (Muslim marriage)" ... if only Mosques abided by that! That is, if Mosques made it clear that they would not agree to perform the nikah unless the legal marriage certificate could be produced, no one would be facing the problem faced by the OP in this topic.

As an aside on this, my wife and I got married in Thailand. Under the laws of Thailand a "mere" religious marriage, whatever the religion, is not a legal marriage. You have to go along to the Amphur (Register Office) to register the legal marriage. Accordingly that is what we did, we went along to the Amphur to register the legal marriage, and then a few days later we had a Christian religious marriage.

The point is that the Pastor of that Church in Thailand made it very clear that he would not perform the religious marriage unless we could produce the legal marriage certificate. Indeed, to reinforce the point, during the religious marriage the legal certificate was rolled up as if into a scroll and ceremoniously carried into the Church!

So come on Mosques, do the right thing, refuse to perform the nikah unless the legal marriage certificate can be produced. After all it is there in black and white in the "Muslim Marriage Contract" marriage contract document.

[batleykhan]

So come on Mosques, do the right thing, refuse to perform the nikah unless the legal marriage certificate can be produced. After all it is there in black and white in the "Muslim Marriage Contract" marriage contract document.

John

The only problem with this is, that if a Muslim performs the civil marriage first in a Registry office, they are deemed to be married under English law.

However they are still not legally married according to Islamic law, which requires that an nikkah be carried out before they can live together and do what you know I mean???.....

This why most people carry out the nikkah at the mosque, so they can consumate the marriage, and then when the honeymoon period is over, both of them go and register it at the Registry office........ unless of course they have a mosque like we do where both the nikkah and the registration could be done at the same time.

Hope that makes sense to you

[John]

It makes total sense to me, but it is not what that document mentioned earlier actually says. Given the document is endorsed by :-

Imams & Mosques Council (UK), The Muslim Law (Shariah) Council UK, Utrujj Foundation, Muslim Council of Britain, The Muslim Parliament of Great Britain, The City Circle, Muslim Women’s Network-UK, Fatima Network, Muslim Community Helpline (Ex-MWH)

-: I just express surprise that Mosques are performing the nikah in the absence of a legal marriage certificate. After all there is nothing to stop the couple getting legally married a day, or a few days, before the nikah .... not living together ... then performing the nikah and then starting the normal married life that you refer to.

After all, if they did that, Muslims would not be caught in the position of the OP in this topic, and lots of others.

[FM]

Guys again thanks alot for help.............I must say that advise given by you two was very correct and up to the mark...............I have asked the same query from BHC in Islamabad and they reply with following answer;

I do understand your concern but your marriage is not recognised in UK the only solution is your wife will have to travel back to Pakistan and you will have to get married again to receive your marriage certificate NIKAH NAMA which is recognised in the UK.


I must say i am very surprised by there new and improved Customer and inquiry service they reply you in less than 24 hours.

So in future any genuine inquiry just email on the following address..............UKHUB.PAKISTANGeneralEnquiries@fco.gov.uk


I hope this post will help all those who are facing same probleb

Thanks alot.

[JiyaKhan]

I reply about ur problem FM did u got it.
Thanks,
JK

[FM]

yes i did............thanks for your help.............I have replied

[batleykhan]

It makes total sense to me, but it is not what that document mentioned earlier actually says. Given the document is endorsed by :-

Quote:
Imams & Mosques Council (UK), The Muslim Law (Shariah) Council UK, Utrujj Foundation, Muslim Council of Britain, The Muslim Parliament of Great Britain, The City Circle, Muslim Women’s Network-UK, Fatima Network, Muslim Community Helpline (Ex-MWH)


-: I just express surprise that Mosques are performing the nikah in the absence of a legal marriage certificate. After all there is nothing to stop the couple getting legally married a day, or a few days, before the nikah .... not living together ... then performing the nikah and then starting the normal married life that you refer to.

After all, if they did that, Muslims would not be caught in the position of the OP in this topic, and lots of others.
_________________
John

Whilst I agree with your comments entirely, the above are guidance notes only and not an essential requirement that a civil marriage at the registry office must be preceded by a nikkah.

The only solution is what you suggested earlier and that is to register the mosque so that both nikkah and civil marriage can be carried at same time.

Thats enough said on this issue. I think the OP only soloution is what we have advised him earlier.