Hungarian border incident

Majeztic · Post by **Majeztic** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:15 pm

I thought I should share my experience of what happened to me,when I tried to cross the Hungarian border from Romania.
I am non-Eu citizen married to an Eu citizen,I have the Family residence card issued by Romania for 5 years.Yesterday me and my wife wanted to visit hungary and we travelled by car,anyway when we got to the border,The hungarians refused to let me in ,they said that I need a Schengen visa and the family residence card is only valid in Romania,the romanian border guards said that they are wrong but they cannot interfere in the hungarians decision.Anyway I told them that what they are doing is wrong and if they dont want to let me through they should give me a letter of refusal stating the Reasons!I showed them my marriage certificate ,but they still said that Romania is not in the schengen and therefore I cannot enter with my Family residence card,After shouting they said I should wait until they go and make me the letter of refusal,I waited for 20 minutes and when he came back he came empty handed,He said that I was right and I have the same rights of movement as my wife and also that they wont stamp my passport,
So they let me through ,had a nice day with my wife,
on my return back to romania on the same day ,The hungarians again made me hassles,They stamped my passport although I told them not to,and as when i entered hungary they didnt stamp so how can you stamp it when I AM LEAVING!! I fought again and told them I would come everyday and cross the border until they learnt the laws,because obviously they dont know nothing!!
The funny thing is when i tried to get in and they refused and they said i need schengen visa,The hungarian border guard told me that he had just finished a course yesterday and that the Romanian family residence card is not valid in schengen area!!! SO WHERE IS IT VALID THEN???
I was really shocked yesterday ,and what i understood from the ROmanian guards is that many many people in the same situation were turned back,actually yeterday a Moldovian married to a Romanian with Family residence card got turned away one hour before I came.

The Hunagarian border immigration officers DONOT know the EU LAWS,and if I had not insisted that they were wrong and that I want a letter of refusal,I would of had the same fate as the Moldovian.I will go again and again and again until they learn.Does anyone have the Directive 2004 58/EU in hungarian ?would appreciate if anyone could help

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:57 pm

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 038:EN:NOT

Great of you to stand up for your rights!

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:58 pm

Directive 2004/38/EC in Hungarian.

What nationality is your spouse?

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:34 pm

I dont believe this, something must be wrong somewhere.

I have travelled through Hungarian border more than 5 times and I never had a delay more than 10 mins which is for them checking and stamping my passport, I have almost 5 stamps both departing and arriving and they even asked for my wife just once.

Well this is strange, cus even Hungarian embassy said family members of romania that holds a residence card as a family member can even travel alone without the spouse.

I cant believe this....I just cant.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:37 pm

Let's wait and see what nationality his wife is, Charles.

Majeztic · Post by **Majeztic** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:38 pm

benifa: she is ROMANIAN

Charles: what is there not to believe,this is what exactly happened to me,which hungarian border did u cross?,u know that there are many,and why have they stamped your passport? should have they not? and concerning traveling with or without the spouse,my wife was with me anyway,there problem is that they thought i needed a schengen visa,if want to know which border I`ll tell you and go and try for urself

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:11 am

Majeztic wrote:benifa: she is ROMANIAN

Charles: what is there not to believe,this is what exactly happened to me,which hungarian border did u cross?,u know that there are many,and why have they stamped your passport? should have they not? and concerning traveling with or without the spouse,my wife was with me anyway,there problem is that they thought i needed a schengen visa,if want to know which border I`ll tell you and go and try for urself

Well I dont know the borders your talking about but I went through the Arad-Hungary border and yes they should stamp my passport and they did.

Anyway sometimes it happens but in most cases if your EU wife is present then there wont be problem, I was asked of my EU wife and our marraige cert in Germany and Denmark and after they saw it...they let us through without any further questions.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:28 am

Majeztic wrote:benifa: she is ROMANIAN

Bingo.

Your wife is Romanian and you are both resident in Romania, so unless Singh conditions apply, you do not hold a "Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen", as described in Article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC. As such, Article 5 (2) and (3) do not apply directly to you:

Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 5(2-3) wrote:Right of Entry
2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an
entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national
law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in
Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas
shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.

3. The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit stamp in the passport of family members
who are not nationals of a Member State provided that they present the residence card provided for
in Article 10.

However, Article 5(4) provides:

Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 5(4) wrote:4. Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not
have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State
concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain
the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to
corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and
residence.

Since you and your wife were travelling together, with both your passports and your marriage certificate, you could not be turned away - and you were not. The Hungarian immigration officers were correct in not recognising your Romanian residence permit as a Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen. They were also correct in placing an entry stamp in your passport.

Majeztic · Post by **Majeztic** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:56 am

charles: it was at the satu mare -hungary border.

benifa wrote:

you do not hold a "Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen"

WRONG,I do hold a Residence card of a family member

benifa wrote:

The Hungarian immigration officers were correct in not recognising your Romanian residence permit as a Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen

Benifa : the hungarians were NOT correct ,the permit i have clearly states RESIDENCE CARD FOR FAMILY MEMBERS.with a duration of 5 years.and why is it correct that he places a stamp of exit and entry ??

Doesnt the directive say: "THE HOST MEMBER SHALL NOT PLACE AN ENTRY OR EXIT STAMP IN THE PASSPORT OF A FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ARE NOT NATIONALS OF A MEMBER STATE PROVIDED THEY PRESENT THE RESIDENCE CARD PROVIDED IN ARTICLE 10"

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:06 am

benifa wrote:Your wife is Romanian and you are both resident in Romania, so unless Singh conditions apply, you do not hold a "Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen", as described in Article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC.

You may argue like this but the point is that the Romanians issue the same card just like some other European countries.

Majeztic wrote:and why is it correct that he places a stamp of exit and entry ??

Doesnt the directive say: "THE HOST MEMBER SHALL NOT PLACE AN ENTRY OR EXIT STAMP IN THE PASSPORT OF A FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ARE NOT NATIONALS OF A MEMBER STATE PROVIDED THEY PRESENT THE RESIDENCE CARD PROVIDED IN ARTICLE 10"

You are right they shouldn't.

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:14 am

He doesnt understand the difference that there are 2 types of family member cards.

1. Residence card as a family member for 5 yrs - Issued understand national law

2 . Residence card as a family member of an EU citizen for 5 yrs - Issued under EU law.

But the fact is that which ever one you hold, you can still accompany your EU spouse to any EU country without a visa.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:16 am

Majeztic, has your spouse ever exercised a Treaty right in another Member State?

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:24 am

charles4u wrote:1. Residence card as a family member for 5 yrs - Issued understand national law

2 . Residence card as a family member of an EU citizen for 5 yrs - Issued under EU law.

I think it was you who mentioned it once on this forum that bothlook exactly the same in Romania. This means that a boarder guard can't distinguish under which law the card was issued.

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:30 am

86ti wrote:
charles4u wrote:1. Residence card as a family member for 5 yrs - Issued understand national law

2 . Residence card as a family member of an EU citizen for 5 yrs - Issued under EU law.
I think it was you who mentioned it once on this forum that bothlook exactly the same in Romania. This means that a boarder guard can't distinguish under which law the card was issued.

And that it true so far as i told u I personally never had any problem crossing the border or even in Germany or Denmark where I was stopped once.

I was travelling alone one time from Germany to Denmark and I was arrested and detained on why I wasnt with my wife. I had to call my wife to come pick me up, so they checked my card and after seeing my wife and our marraige cert...they let me go (so I'm sure its still the same everywhere if your with you EU spouse no matter which kinda family card you hold).

Majeztic · Post by **Majeztic** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:35 am

charles wrote:

He doesnt understand the difference that there are 2 types of family member cards

Yes there is 2 types of cards 1.RTR which is temporary valid for 5 years
2.RPR which is permanent valid for 10 years

before Romania entered the European union,they issued a permit of 1 year for family members for 2 consecutive years and then for a full 3 years,and then the family member could apply for permanent residency.Once Romania entered the EU they changed the residency permit for family members according to the EU directives.It is not true that one of them is issued under national law! both look the same expect the duration 5 and 10 years and RTR or RPR written on it.

Benifa wrote:

Majeztic, has your spouse ever exercised a Treaty right in another Member State?

She has been excercising her rights in Romania as a German citizen for the last 2 years until she got the romanian citizenship last January

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:52 am

Majeztic wrote:
benifa wrote:Majeztic, has your spouse ever exercised a Treaty right in another Member State?

She has been excercising her rights in Romania as a German citizen for the last 2 years until she got the romanian citizenship last January

Was your card issued on the basis of the Romanian or the German citizenship?

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:57 am

Majeztic wrote:She has been excercising her rights in Romania as a German citizen for the last 2 years until she got the romanian citizenship last January

Hold on - your wife is also a German citizen? You could have mentioned that!

In that case yes, EU Directive 2004/38/EC applies - your Residence Card certainly should be a "Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen", as described in Article 10.

If you wife were a Romanian citizen only, and not having exercised a Treaty right in another Member State, your right to reside in Romania would not come under the provisions of the Directive.

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:59 am

Majeztic wrote:Yes there is 2 types of cards
1.RTR which is temporary valid for 5 years
2.RPR which is permanent valid for 10 years

What we actual mean here is: 1) the non-EEA spouse of a Romanian citizen never having exercised treaty rights before and 2) the non-EEA spouse of an EEA national exercising treaty rights in Romania (or in the case of a Romanian citizen having returned under the Surinder Singh ruling). When either 1) or 2) get residency for the very first time they will get exactly the same card? Sorry for repeating this all over again but I think it is crucial information.

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:06 am

Majeztic wrote:charles wrote:
He doesnt understand the difference that there are 2 types of family member cards
Yes there is 2 types of cards 1.RTR which is temporary valid for 5 years
2.RPR which is permanent valid for 10 years

before Romania entered the European union,they issued a permit of 1 year for family members for 2 consecutive years and then for a full 3 years,and then the family member could apply for permanent residency.Once Romania entered the EU they changed the residency permit for family members according to the EU directives.It is not true that one of them is issued under national law! both look the same expect the duration 5 and 10 years and RTR or RPR written on it.

Benifa wrote:

Majeztic, has your spouse ever exercised a Treaty right in another Member State?

She has been excercising her rights in Romania as a German citizen for the last 2 years until she got the romanian citizenship last January

Well first the fact Romania is in EU doesnt mean ur residence is issued under EU law, every EU country still issues under their national law.
Try to read what Benifa wrote last and maybe you will understand what we are saying.

Lastly...Benifa...something you should still understand, she has a Romanian passport and possibly they applied for his residence with her Romanian passport which will make him get a residence as a family member not a residence card for family members of an EU.

All this same...I still think Romania issues just residence card for family members (5yrs) for all EU family members residing in Romania and after 3 yrs...they can apply for romanian passport valid for 10years which is the permanent resident Majeztic was talking about.

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:10 am

86ti wrote:
Majeztic wrote:Yes there is 2 types of cards
1.RTR which is temporary valid for 5 years
2.RPR which is permanent valid for 10 years
What we actual mean here is: 1) the non-EEA spouse of a Romanian citizen never having exercised treaty rights before and 2) the non-EEA spouse of an EEA national exercising treaty rights in Romania (or in the case of a Romanian citizen having returned under the Surinder Singh ruling). When either 1) or 2) get residency for the very first time they will get exactly the same card? Sorry for repeating this all over again but I think it is crucial information.

Something like that, this was what I earlier said here and as you can see 86ti these guy said almost the same thing.

They issue family members same card and after 3-5 yrs you can apply for permanent permit which is also Romanian passport valid for 10yrs.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:12 am

charles4u wrote:Lastly...Benifa...something you should still understand, she has a Romanian passport and possibly they applied for his residence with her Romanian passport which will make him get a residence as a family member not a residence card for family members of an EU.

True, I accept that.

Hopefully the OP will come back and tell us exactly what was applied for, since the revelation that his Romanian wife is also a German citizen.

Majeztic · Post by **Majeztic** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:14 am

Was your card issued on the basis of the Romanian or the German citizenship?

It was issued based on her Romanian citizenship

Benifa wrote:

Hold on - your wife is also a German citizen? You could have mentioned that!

The border immigration did not know that she also had German citizenship

If you wife were a Romanian citizen only, and not having exercised a Treaty right in another Member State, your right to reside in Romania would not come under the provisions of the Directive

I fail to agree with you here,If she was only Romanian,The directive would still apply.I already had residency in Romania before I married her.That residency was under national law and I could not leave to other Eu countries without a Visa.After marrying her ,they applied the directive ,changed my residency permit.
I have moved with this family residence card to austria,germany,greece,slovenia,italy(alone 2 times),and this is the 1st time I encounter a problem at the hungarian border,a problem that was fixed after they verified,it was a small border with little movement and it could be seen that they lacked experience.be sure that if it wasnt a family residence card they would of not let me through.

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:22 am

Majeztic wrote:
Was your card issued on the basis of the Romanian or the German citizenship?
It was issued based on her Romanian citizenship

.

I thought as much but still the Romanian passport she has should have her second nationality on it which should still mean that she is just residing in Romania as a permanent foreigner cus she still holds another EU nationality and in this case Majeztic should have gotten a residence card for family members of an EU. (she's a german exercising her treaty rights in Romania by holding a permanent permit)

But I think the fact Romania issues just one type of family card caused the whole thing.

Majeztic · Post by **Majeztic** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:26 am

Both Cards look the same,BUT as I said before,it can be seen it is Temporary or Permanent.Temporary 5 years and its written RTR or Permanent 10 years RPR.

Charles:

They issue family members same card and after 3-5 yrs you can apply for permanent permit which is also Romanian passport valid for 10yrs

the permanent permit is not a Romanian passport! after you get the permanent,you can then apply for the Romanian passport.

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:29 am

Majeztic wrote:Both Cards look the same,BUT as I said before,it can be seen it is Temporary or Permanent.Temporary 5 years and its written RTR or Permanent 10 years RPR.

the permanent permit is not a Romanian passport! after you get the permanent,you can then apply for the Romanian passport.

Well ok.

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