Is this in compliance with EU laws?

[euxinus]

Hi,

I am a Romanian citizen, resident in Valencia, Spain. My wife is a Spanish citizen (and of Spanish origin). We have a child - Spanish citizen too, born here.

I travel to the UK regularly, sometimes accompanied by my wife. I entered the UK in the past via a number of airports (Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Liverpool and Manchester). In 2009 I flew frequently to Manchester - over 10 times - and immediately both me and my wife noticed what seemed to be an obvious hostility towards Romanian citizens, compared to the other British airports we used. Pretty much everytime I would show my Romanian Passports and/or Identity Card at Manchester Airport I would be grilled with all kind of questions:

• "Where are you flying from?"
  "What are you doing in Spain?"
  "What is the purpose of your visit to the UK?"
  "For how long do you intend to stay?"
  "What is your date of birth?" (I guess they want to check if I know what is written in the passport)
  "Where was the passport issued?"
  Sometimes even "Do you have any other ID"?
  "Can I see your Spanish residence card?" (which actually is not even compulsory for Romanians in Spain), etc.

Most times they look at my passport and/or ID card with lenses and other devices in what it seems to me a very theatrical act; sometimes they would disappear with my passport and come back a while later, etc. I've never seen them do that to my wife (Spanish citizen) or anyone else in the EU queue ... and to me they do it almost every time as if I, as a Romanian, was some kind of potential criminal or something!

The other strange thing is this hasn't happened to me in any of the London airports. I don't remember going through it in Liverpool either. But in Manchester ... almost always! It seems to me they have some sort of "agenda" against Romanian citizens (and I would imagine possibly against citizens of other new EU member states too ...)

In the end they always let me through - as there is nothing wrong with my passport or ID card - but only after some kind of big "mancunian circus".

At the same airport, on one occasion I was stopped again by some "official" after the border check and collecting my luggage, who asked what was the purpose of my visit and for how long I intended to stay in the country ?!

Is all this in compliance with EU law? If EU citizens don't require permission to enter another EU member state, why am I being asked what I was doing in Spain or what was the purpose of my visit to the UK?

If I can enter the UK using my Passport or ID Card, why would they ask to see my Spanish residence card?


Next time I travel to Manchester, in a week or so, I'm planning to contest their questions - and ask them why do they need that information. Would that be OK? Can I refuse to answer these type of questions or refuse to show them for example my Spanish residence card if they ask for it?

[JAJ]

One reason they ask questions is to determine whether your passport is genuine and you are its rightful owner.

Too many fake EEA passports are in circulation.

[PaperPusher]

At the same airport, on one occasion I was stopped again by some "official" after the border check and collecting my luggage, who asked what was the purpose of my visit and for how long I intended to stay in the country ?!

That is customs - nothing to do with immigration rules but to do with smuggling and taxes.

"Where are you flying from?"

This is also a customs related question, among other things. The goods you can bring in to the UK from within the EU are different than the ones you can bring from outside the EU.

If you want to be awkward to see what happens and don't have any urgent appointments, you could try it.

I am a British passport holder and I get many of the same questions. I don't feel that they are being deliberately hostile to me as a result.

JAJ is right too.

[euxinus]

That is customs - nothing to do with immigration rules but to do with smuggling and taxes.

But aren't the usual questions at customs, relevant for smuggling and taxes "Where are you flying from?" " or "can I see your suitcases?" ? He hadn't asked me any of those, he only asked "why I was there" and for "for how long I intended to stay". And actually that was in the luggage hall, before going through customs.

I am aware British or other EU citizens are treated in a similar way sometimes - numerous questions, passport examined at length and taken to the office, etc - but that seems to be a random act. To me it happens practically everytime, that's why I think as soon as they see a Romanian cover the presumtion of "guilty" is turned on.

WOW, I can't believe! While trying to find some statistics for falsified passports per country in the EU, I actually found websites advertising falsifying services!!

[petkanov]

http://bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteconten ... iew=Binary read 4.2

You know, they are being rude to you. It is illegal to ask you how ling you are staying and other irrelevent questions.

If I was you, I would tell them that they can call the romanian embassy if they suspect the passport, and that you don't agree with being stoped every time. Tell them that you want to talk to the Chief Immigration Officer to complain, and tell him you are complaining to the European Commission, your embassy, the UK ombudsman, the MP and BIA for harrasment and facial profiling and breach of EU laws. And last, but not least, take joy in the fact that no matter what the lovey immigration officer thinks about you, you are still EU citizen and are entitled,(ITS YOUR RIGHT) to be admitted to the UK and live there if you so wish.

[euxinus]

petkanov is correct. I've just received a reply from the European Commission regarding this issue. The UK Border Agency and Romanian Embassy haven't replied yet. This is some of the message:

Beside the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport, there are no other conditions or formalities for the purpose of entry to the host Member State. However, the immigration officers are entitled to check the validity of your identity card or passport. The border control officers must respect your fundamental rights and your dignity.

You will find the above mentioned information at the following website:

http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/c ... ex_en.html

Further on, we would like to advise you to contact the Ombudsman in the UK to complain about the behavior of immigration officers. The national ombudsman investigates complaints about maladministration in the institutions in the country and you can obtain the relevant contact details via the following webpage:

http://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/atyourse ... smen.faces

Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman

Millbank Tower

Millbank

UK-London SW1P 4QP

Tel.: +44 345 015 4033

Fax: +44 300 061 4000

Website: http://www.ombudsman.org.uk

etc.

I checked the link provided and it says clearly there:

Immigration officers may not:

* require you to present an identity card with machine readable zone, a recent model of identity card or a passport with validity at least another 3 months … if the identity card or passport is valid, that is all you need;
* ask you to produce any documents other than a valid identity card or passport, such as to furnish proof of means to support yourself, travel tickets, employment certificate, pay slips, bank statements, proof of accommodation, means of subsistence, medical certificate …
* ask you how much money you have to spend;
* ask you questions regarding the purpose and duration of your trip;
* affix an entry stamp on your identity document or passport on arrival authorising you to enter the national territory.

They breached repeatedly 3 of the above rules as far as I am concerned and if I don't a get a satisfactory reply from the UK Border Agency within a reasonable amount of time, I will take this further with the UK ombudsman.

I post this here so that any other citizens of the newer EU member countries who are not treated by immigration officers as required by European law, are aware of their rights and know what they can do about it.

[UKBAbble]

Good luck but I doubt if it wll get you anywhere. You can be examined by an immigration officer under customs powers now, eea immigration regulations don't come into it I'm afraid.

[euxinus]

Good luck but I doubt if it wll get you anywhere. You can be examined by an immigration officer under customs powers now, eea immigration regulations don't come into it I'm afraid.

Actually I read about customs powers and as far as I am aware they can only be used when there is reasonable suspicion not just as and when an immgration officer wishes to.

Also, on the European Commission website it says clearly that those rules supersede national law of member countries.

"Please note that should the host Member States fail to transpose the provisions of the Directive correctly or on time, they are directly applicable. As a result of that, you can rely on them against any national provisions, which are incompatible with them."

So yes, I'm pretty sure the ombudsman can get somewhere with this.

[Wanderer]

I noticed on my recent trip to Hamburg that the passport queues at Hamburger Flughafen contained absolutely no one, yet on my return to M/cr there must have been 300/400 people queuing at once via EEA channel, took over 40 mins to get through....

Either the Germans are more efficient (I doubt it!) or more people come to UK for nefarious means, hence more questioning time...

Indeed in M/cr there are posters telling what to do if u r claiming asylum, nothing at all at Hamburg - two provincial airports, the same.

I just know that on my return to my hometown of Bolton, the first 50 or so people I saw were African-looking, probably Somali, as my social-worker brother tells me he deals with LOTS of Somalis, I was really shocked at both the number and concerned at myself for noticing it and wondering if I'm becoming more and more dearly beloved which I probably am...

Honestly, I was stunned, I love multiculturalism and diversity, but not at the erosion of my local culture, now very much the minority, it's like rubbing out my background, but I am wise enough to know I'm not the first, and the British have done it to others, so I just get on with it!

[euxinus]

It's not the same issue though. Most non-EU citizens are required to go through visa and border check - where they need to show documents supporting their claims. EU citizens not so.

This is about using double standards, in breach of EU law, Spanish wife goes through in 10 seconds, Romanian takes minutes every time - for no legal reason other than facial profiling.
Should then UK citizens expect a decent and fair border check process in all other EU countries if they don't offer the same?!

[Wanderer]

It's not the same issue though. Most non-EU citizens are required to go through visa and border check - where they need to show documents supporting their claims. EU citizens not so.

This is about using double standards, in breach of EU law, Spanish wife goes through in 10 seconds, Romanian takes minutes every time - for no legal reason other than facial profiling.
Should then UK citizens expect a decent and fair border check process in all other EU countries if they don't offer the same?!

Would u agree that some EU states do carry some baggage, despite EU status, I know that some states have been warned about compliance regarding the veracity of passports issued etc, and let's face it, mostly from the newer former Soviet sphere of influence area. My gf is Russian, I know how their influence permeates, I know bribery and corruption still exists there and in their former satellites, so that breeds mistrust, I think u have to live with it.

My gf gets it too, she just accepts it.

[euxinus]

It's not the same issue though. Most non-EU citizens are required to go through visa and border check - where they need to show documents supporting their claims. EU citizens not so.

This is about using double standards, in breach of EU law, Spanish wife goes through in 10 seconds, Romanian takes minutes every time - for no legal reason other than facial profiling.
Should then UK citizens expect a decent and fair border check process in all other EU countries if they don't offer the same?!

Would u agree that some EU states do carry some baggage, despite EU status, I know that some states have been warned about compliance regarding the veracity of passports issued etc, and let's face it, mostly from the newer former Soviet sphere of influence area. My gf is Russian, I know how their influence permeates, I know bribery and corruption still exists there and in their former satellites, so that breeds mistrust, I think u have to live with it.

My gf gets it too, she just accepts it.

As long as that state is a member of the EU, those issues must be discussed, agreed on and turned into law at the European Parliament and the European Commission. Once that is law it has to be applied fairly for all member countries - there is no legal way around it.

And I think we would probably be surprised to see how many of the internationally suspected terrorists and infractors are British citizens and how many are Romanian ...

[Wanderer]

Yes but the 'British Terrorists' are mostly first or second generation immigrants from Islamic countries, hence the need to be extra vigilant at the Border.

Weak I know, but it's all I can respond with, except that in my two weeks in Romania in 1985, as in Interrailing student, I was fined, encouraged to bribe, had to paid for being let off dubious crimes (not having some form I never knew existed) - mud sticks...

I'm sure that's in the collective UKBA mind, call it dearly beloved, I call it cautiousness, you can feel it in the airport compared with mainland EU, fact is folks flock here, I do think the HO has a right to err on the side of caution.

JMTCW.....

[kabuki]

As an American travelling in Europe, I've never been questioned, except in Ireland when an immigration officer called me a lire and said there was no such thing as a Stamp 1A, this was even after showing him my work/training contract and a letter to the GNIB from the ICAI in regards to the stamp. However, it's very common in Ireland to have to deal with immigration officers who know nothing.

However, I travelled with my partner and her parents to Germany back in April. Flying in was no problem, but when her dad was trying to catch his plane back to Ireland, he was asked all sorts of questions- why do you have 2 mobile phones? To which he consistently replied that he only has one. The other item was his battery back for his hearing aid. Then he was asked why his Dutch passport was issued in Dublin repeatedly, as if the guy didn't believe he has been living in Ireland for 12 years. I was astonished. I couldn't believe and EU citizen was getting questioned like that.

[euxinus]

I think the most important thing is the law. Isn't Britain a country where the law matters anymore?!

I don't see anywhere on the UK Border Agency website anything that gives immigration officers the power to interogate EU citizens under normal circumstances about anything that is not directly related to the validity of the passport or id card. Nothing else! On the contrary on various pages it is written clearly that EU citizens are not subject to border control and do not require permission to enter the UK. Not even in the new immigration act. If there was anything it would be in breach of European Law.

European Court of Justice has already forced Britain to make ammends in the past and it would just happen again. The right to free movement and the protection that comes with it is one of the most fundamental rights in the European Union.