Relocating to Ireland - EU/Non-EU family rights

[guyweisz]

We are an EU/non-EU married couple (my wife is German) who are currently living in Spain, where I hold a permanent resident card (EU Community model) having lived here for the last 6 years. Recently I was offered a job in Ireland (26,000€ annual salary), and we are positively considering relocating.

We understand that we first have to move to Ireland, rent an apartment and only then, once registered as tenants, apply for my residence card. What troubles us, having read the info posted on several websites, is the necessity to prove that my wife works or studies in Ireland. The thing is that my wife has been taking care of our baby for the last year, and she intends to keep doing precisely that for the next six months at least. Does that mean that we are actually in no position to relocate to Ireland? Should I turn down this job offer?

Thanks for your help!

[Ben]

Hi guyweisz.

May I ask your own nationality?

Regardless, you all (your wife, your child and yourself) have the right to enter Ireland and remain for up to three months without any condition or formality, other than the requirement to hold a valid passport or EU citizen National ID card.

Beyond three months, your collective right to remain is extended, so long as your wife is working, self-employed, studying or economically self-sufficient. In your case, since you will be working, your wife would fall in to the self-sufficient category.

[zzz]

your wife would fall in to the self-sufficient category.

on 26K ? I would not be so sure .

[Ben]

your wife would fall in to the self-sufficient category.

on 26K ? I would not be so sure .

Why?

[zzz]

Why?

regardless of his wife's status here - 26k is extremely low income for the family of three.

[Obie]

zzz can you please enlighten me on how much will be considered as sufficient for a family of three in the eyes of the department of Justice.

Are you saying this from a cost of living point of view or from the EU immigration point of view. Because i am a bit confused.

You enlightenment will be very welcomed

[Ben]

regardless of his wife's status here - 26k is extremely low income for the family of three.

Bearing in mind that a married person earning 26k is not taxed (if spouse not working), the OP is subject to PRSI deductions only (of €14.92 per week).

The income less PRSI is €485.08 weekly. Let's say they spend €210 /week on rent (may vary, obviously), and €10 /week on travelling to work (18c /KM). The family is also entitled to a Medical Card and the OP is therefore not subject to the 2% levy.


€265.08 weekly salary + €20 weekly FIS, = €285.08. Monthly, this is €1235.35, plus Child Benefit @ €166, = €1401.35. Remember, that's after rent has been paid.

Of course, we don't know the OP's personal financial situation, but on the face of it, €1400 a month to spend on food, bills, car (and whatever else), doesn't seem too bad at all. I'm sure a family of three can live on that quite comfortably - even in Ireland!

[Obie]

10 Euros a week on travel. Which part of Ireland is that?

It cost nearly 25 euros where i am living in Dublin, and the system is quite inefficient and incoherent.

I will love to move to that area.

[Ben]

10 Euros a week on travel. Which part of Ireland is that?

Assuming driving to work, 5.6 KMs from home (3.5 miles).

5.6 x 2 = 11.2 x 5 = 56 x 0.18* = €10.08

(*18c per KM for the purpose of MC eligibility calculation).

[Obie]

That calculation seems too complex for me. Maybe, just maybe, i am not the only one.

I think a bit of simplification on the abbreviations will not go amiss.

Perhaps it is traveling cost for means other than public transport.

If your wife will be applying as self-sufficient, you might need to add medical insurance to your list of cost. Although i am open to correction on that one.

I am not sure, you working, will exempt the family from that requirement.

If you have sufficient resources:

* A Current Bank statement
AND/OR
* Evidence of self-sufficiency
AND
* Letter from private medical insurance provider

[ca.funke]

Usually I prefer to be specific. However it's only possible to be as specific as the law is:

Article 7, Section 1:

Right of residence for more than three months

1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the
territory of another Member State for a period of longer than
three months if they:

(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member
State; or

(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family
members not to become a burden on the social assistance
system of the host Member State during their period of
residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover
in the host Member State; or
(...)

Article 8, Section 4:

Administrative formalities for Union citizens

4. Member States may not lay down a fixed amount which
they regard as ‘sufficient resources’, but they must take into
account the personal situation of the person concerned. In all
cases this amount shall not be higher than the threshold below
which nationals of the host Member State become eligible for
social assistance, or, where this criterion is not applicable,
higher than the minimum social security pension paid by the
host Member State.

hopes this helps a bit...

[Ben]

That calculation seems too complex for me. Maybe, just maybe, i am not the only one.

I think a bit of simplification on the abbreviations will not go amiss.

Edited my post, adding some linkage.

[Ben]

If your wife will be applying as self-sufficient, you might need to add medical insurance to your list of cost.

Indeed, the Directive requires that EU nationals who are self-sufficient in the host Member State are required to hold comprehensive sickness insurance cover.

However, if Irish citizens, in identical circumstances, are entitled to a Medical Card which provides free medical care, the Directive requires that EU nationals are also so entitled (Article 24).

That said:

Equal treatment
1. Subject to such specific provisions as are expressly provided for in the Treaty and secondary
law, all Union citizens residing on the basis of this Directive in the territory of the host Member
State shall enjoy equal treatment with the nationals of that Member State within the scope of the
Treaty. The benefit of this right shall be extended to family members who are not nationals of a
Member State and who have the right of residence or permanent residence.

"residing on the basis of this Directive". So, as we know, the right to reside (for a period longer than three months) and the right to equal treatment is dependant on the EU national falling in to the category of either Article 7(1)(a), (b) or (c) of the Directive, as quoted by Christian.

This means that EU nationals who are a self-sufficient in Ireland are unable to receive truly equal treatment. Does it?

I feel the requirement to hold comprehensive sickness insurance cover is contestable, when an EU national and his/her family members are Medical Card holders or entitled to be so.

[Obie]

Sorry for putting you through so much trouble.

It is very kind of you to provide us these links.

However , i am unconvinced these figure can be replicated into reality, especially the transport bit.

My EEA national sibling spends about 40 euros a week on fuel cost for her work car, and i estimate her work place is about 7 miles from our home.

By that calculation she should technically be spending 21 euros a week, but that is not the case.

It is just good that it is a company car and they cover the cost, or else we will be facing huge hardship.

I have even stopped using a car as it is expensive to maintain. At least, until the mighty DOJ gives me a permission to work, which would make employers a little bit less uneasy to take me on board, despite immense convincing that i am allowed to take up employment.

That is another reality that the OP, will need to deal with.

[Ben]

However , i am unconvinced these figure can be replicated into reality, especially the transport bit.

My EEA national sibling spends about 40 euros a week on fuel cost for her work car, and i estimate her work place is about 7 miles from our home.

By that calculation she should technically be spending 21 euros a week, but that is not the case.

I know, you're right. 18c per KM is unrealistic. However, when calculating Medical Card eligibility, 18c per KM travel to work by car is how they do it (Community Welfare Officer).

Note that if public transport is taken instead, the actual cost of it is taken in to account. This may be more beneficial.

[agniukas]

in your calculations , benifa, you mentioned FIS and medical card... that does not seem like self sufficient or not a burden on the state resources... or am I missing anything?
And i guess that the reason for Op getting EUFAm stamp 4 would be due to the fact that his wife is working, studying, etc... If she is not, he cannot get EUFAM and start working to support her... Or am I missing anything here as well?

[Obie]

I think the medical card is outside the scope of the treaty, so she will not be covered.

She would have been entitled to it, if she was living in Ireland but working in another member state.

I think she will face considerable difficulty convincing the DOJ that she qualifies.

Cross border worker are still considered as community worker, and hence qualify for a free medical service. Self-sufficient person, as their status indicates aren't.

Still open to clarification or correction from our wisecontributors

[agniukas]

I also think that the family would not be entitled to any SW payments like medical card or FIS unless they were living in ireland for the last 2 years.

[Ben]

The notion of being "self sufficient" and "not a burden on the state resources" is often ambiguous.

Receiving €20 /week FIS and holding a Medical Card, may not be seen as a burden on the state if it least one of a couple is in employment. Ask yourself, if an Irish man works while his Irish wife stays home and looks after the children, and the family are in receipt of FIS and hold Medical Cards - are they considered a burden on the state?

I would think not. Others may think so. Unfortunately, it's not clear cut.

All residents of Ireland are entitled to a Medical Card if they meet the eligibility criteria. It is not to do with the Treaty.

Eligibility for a Medical Card, or for FIS, is not subject to the Habitual Residence Condition (HRC).

I am still unsure whether a person who holds a Medical Card or is entitled to hold a Medical Card as they fit the eligibility criteria, who is an EU national self-sufficient in Ireland, is obliged to obtain comprehensive sickness insurance cover. Again, I find another area of the Directive which contradictory.

However, thinking practically, the OP's Residence Card should be applied for once or before three months of residence have been acquired. At this time, if a Medical Card has been applied for, it probably will not have been issued - meaning the argument of whether comprehensive sickness insurance cover is required or not, may carry even less weight.

Therefore, if I were the OP, I'd probably be inclined to organise comprehensive sickness insurance cover to satisfy the DoJ when applying for my Residence Card on form EU1. However, I may not choose to renew this insurance once I've a Residence Card confirming my right to reside in Ireland. As in Irish resident, I may then apply for a Medical Card if I fit the eligibility criteria.

[Obie]

You may be entitled to a medical card under EU Regulations:

* You are living in Ireland and receiving a social security payment from another European Union/European Economic Area (EU/EEA) country or Switzerland and you are not getting an Irish social welfare payment (apart from Child Benefit or Early Childcare Supplement). You must not be employed or self-employed, that is, liable to pay PRSI)
* You are living in Ireland and working in another EU/EEA country or Switzerland and are liable to pay social insurance contributions in that country
* You are living in Ireland and you are the dependent spouse or child of someone employed in another EU/EEA country or Switzerland. You must not be getting an Irish social welfare payment apart from Child Benefit or Early Childcare Supplement and you must not be liable to contribute to the Irish social welfare system, that is, pay PRSI on income.

Based on these requirements, i am unsure if the OP's wife will qualify.

[Ben]

You may be entitled to a medical card under EU Regulations:

<snip>

Based on these requirements, i am unsure if the OP's wife will qualify.

The family will not be entitled to a Medical Card under EU Regulations. But they will be entitled under domestic regulations.

[Obie]

Thanks for the clarification.

We were thinking of applying for a GP card, but fear it might be classified as public benefit.

I might consider it, rather than spending the money i would have used to take potential dates to nice restaurants on needless medical insurance premium fee.

I will need to study it a bit more, though.

One of the requirements, is that you have a PPS number among other things.

[Ben]

We were thinking of applying for a GP card, but fear it might be classified as public benefit.

Even if it were, isn't your EEA national family member an employed person? Thus fully covered by Article 24. No?

One of the requirements, is that you have a PPS number among other things.

Definitely. But sure even a tourist can get one of those..

[zzz]

zzz can you please enlighten me on how much will be considered as sufficient for a family of three in the eyes of the department of Justice.

Are you saying this from a cost of living point of view or from the EU immigration point of view.

Obie, I certainly can't read DoJ minds and, yes, my opinion is based on cost of leaving here ( based on my own experience).

Thanks benifa for detailed calculations, but (imho) 1400/month after paying bills (including food and motoring) will leave very little to spare - I can't call it comfortable.

(all above is my personal opinion)

also, I've never heard that 'continental' residence card is valid for getting employment here ? and it will take a while before OP can get 'Irish' EU4FAM card.
I read an another forum about a case where non-EU husband was refused EU4FAM as his EU wife was not working here (she was looking after their baby).

[Obie]

Please don't get upset with me. I didn't mean to question your assessment. I was just getting a bit curious that is all. If it is any consolation, i agree with you, from the Cost of living side of things.

Ben in regards to your appreciated response, my EEA family member's income seems to be above the threshold for medical card, we considered a GP card, but didn't apply as i was not in possession of a PPS then.

I managed to obtain one quite recently.

I am having to travel to N. Ireland for my medical treatment , as the Irish Medical system is very complex. I hold a medical insurance just in case i get an episode and unable to travel that distance.

Touch wood i will be alright. I haven't fallen ill since i came here, just as well.