Spouse Visa short stay requirements!

[ciaramc]

Okay so just got off the phone from the Irish embassy.......I was enquiring about a visa for my husband to travel to Dublin with me. Okay so we want to travel in January after Christmas so I asked the embassy would it be possible to apply say in November before Christmas rush etc.... but have the dates of travel in January was told "ohh I don't know but don't think so" I then informed her that in the UK it is possible to do this.....and she told me the UK is much more flexible than Ireland? So I then asked her so what application do we fill out his wife is an Irish citizen exercising treaty rights in Italy and he has a 5 year resident card as a family member of a EU citizen....was told no I'm always an Irish citizen to which I replied!! Yeah thanks I know that! So then was informed that if we are going for a short stay we would have to provide tickets for both of us showing we are travelling together and plan to return together? She told me they had received these indstructions from the DoJ. Which I proceeded to tell her are wrong! THey don't seem to have a clue at the embassy!

Now don't know about you lot but I'm sure my husband and myself don't have to produce tickets? Or do we?

[Ben]

Now don't know about you lot but I'm sure my husband and myself don't have to produce tickets? Or do we?

No you don't. Singh conditions apply. You are to be treated as an EU national, not an Irish national, for the purpose of Directive 2004/38/EC when returning to Ireland.

Right of residence for up to three months
1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a
period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to
hold a valid identity card or passport.

If you think you can both board the flight from Italy to Ireland, possessing only your two passports and his Residence Card, - do it.

If you don't want to probable hassle, get the EUTR visa. The only documents required are those proving you are exercising a Treaty right in Italy, your marriage cert, and your passports. I'm sure you know that it's free and must be processed as soon as possible.

[ciaramc]

Ben - everything you said is exactly what I think and told the Embassy this morning and she told me sorry Ms but it is not as black and white as that.....your husband is visa required and as a result will need a visa to travel to Ireland and he and you will both have to book tickets!! I told her that was a direct contradiction of EU law but she was not having any of it!! Told me I should send her some stuff if I needed to! So trying to look true the directive and inform her of my rights!! This is the list she sent me!

•Signed application summary sheet and three passport photographs
•Applicant’s passport.
•Passport / Identity card of EU spouse
•(For Spouses) Marriage Certificate – evidence (apostilled document) that marriage has been registered in applicant’s country of origin/residence.
•(For Children) Birth Certificate (long form) for children under 21 years, parental consent, national identity card (signed if required).
•Evidence that the applicant is accompanying the EU Citizen to Ireland – e.g. return airline/ferry tickets in both names this is the only one I have a problem with and also the application form is about 12 pages long....can they really ask us all this stuff including things about my family???
Or
•Evidence that the EU Citizen is already residing in Ireland

[ciaramc]

Oh and I asked them to send me the requirements for my husband should we want to relocate to Ireland - (Which we don't at the moment)

Visa applications by family members of EU citizens who wish to move to Ireland
As of 26 January 2009, all visa applications must be made online at www.visas.inis.gov.ie .
Once an application has been made online, the summary sheet should be printed and sent, along with the required documentation to the appropriate Embassy. Applications from Italy and San Marino should be sent to the Irish Embassy in Rome or the Honorary Consulate in Milan. Applications from Libya should be sent to the Irish Embassy in Cairo. See www.visas.inis.gov.ie for further details.

Spouses

•Signed application summary sheet and three passport photographs
•Passport.
•(For Spouses) Marriage Certificate – evidence (apostilled document) that marriage has been registered in applicant’s country of origin/residence. (We never regisitered anywhere as we married in Italy we have a international marriage certificate will this do? I never regisitered in Ireland cause the embassy informed us no need we married in Italy valid in Ireland also))
•(For Children) Birth Certificate (long form) for children under 21 years, parental consent, national identity card (signed if required).
•Evidence that the EU Citizen spouse is exercising their EU Treaty Rights by being employed/self employed in Ireland or engaged in a valid vocational training programme or has sufficient financial resources and comprehensive sickness insurance cover. (Thought we can stay 3 months without the need to exercise rights?)

[Obie]

Perhaps you should send them a copy of This and ask if it does or doesn't apply to Ireland. Request they provide a written letter to this effect, if they think Ireland is exempted from this judgment, if not they should issue a visa free of charge and as part of an accelerated process for him.

[Ben]

Who are you flying with?

Would you not fly with Aer Lingus, check-in online and just fly, no?

[ciaramc]

Yeah I always fly with Aer lingus....so we could do this but it is the principal of the matter.....they told me at the Embassy that these are the guidelines that the DoJ are giving to the Embassy.... which are clearly wrong and Ithin the Embassy should know. I have emailed the Embassy sending the directive highlighting the relevant articles. The embassy don't have a clue!

Going to send it to the DoJ next!

[ciaramc]

Oh and they told me it will take at least six weeks? Is this the accelerated process they are talking about?

[acme4242]

I suggest you ask your Irish TD or MEP to contact the Irish DOJ on your behalf.
Otherwise the DOJ will fob you off.

[Ben]

I admire your strength Ciara.

Personally, I would probably collect in writing everything that they're saying, that is against the Directive and the relevant case law, and forward it to the European Commission. Let them do the work - they have more weight than we citizens do anyway.

Then I'd just fly Aer Lingus, sans visa, and be done with it. Bit of fun with the GNIB in the airport on arrival, not only because of the lack of visa, but because I'd be refusing to allow them to place and entry stamp in the passport. All good fun.

Either way, good luck!

[ciaramc]

I was thinking of doing this....I will definitley forward everything they are asking me to the European Commission....just not sure if I want to risk the flight sans visa???? I would love to get into it at Dublin airport!! Just to see what they would actually do....the only problem is my poor husband would rather get the visa!

[Ben]

Unless Aer Lingus' procedures have changed, you should be able to check-in online, print the boarding pass yourself and go straight to the gate at the airport for boarding. In short, no visa check on departure. The fun doesn't start until your arrival in Dublin

In Dublin, carry print outs of these docs, circling these sections:

Article 52 of the Treaty and Council Directive 73/148/EEC of 21 May 1973 on the abolition of restrictions on movement and residence within the Community for nationals of Member States with regard to establishment and the provision of services, properly construed, require a Member State to grant leave to enter and reside in its territory to the spouse, of whatever nationality, of a national of that State who has gone, with that spouse, to another Member State in order to work there as an employed person as envisaged by Article 48 of the Treaty and returns to establish himself or herself as envisaged by Article 52 of the Treaty in the State of which he or she is a national. A spouse must enjoy at least the same rights as would be granted to him or her under Community law if his or her spouse entered and resided in another Member State.

Right of Entry
2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an
entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national
law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in
Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

Possession of the valid residence card, referred to in the relevant fact sheet, issued by any Member State, exempts you from the visa obligation not only in the Member State which issued the residence card, but in all Member States.

<also>

Immigration officers at the border may not:

* affix an entry stamp in your passport on arrival when you present the residence card;

Right of Entry
3. The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit stamp in the passport of family members
who are not nationals of a Member State provided that they present the residence card provided for
in Article 10.

(4) An immigration officer shall not, at the point of entry, place a stamp in the passport of a
qualifying family member who presents to the officer a valid residence card.

[scrudu]

Ciara,

one point to note, the 3 month Irish C-Tourist visa is issued with a validity of 3 months from date of issue. This means you have to enter within 3 months of visa issue. The duration of the visa may depend though. They used to give out 3 mth visas but it seems they now restrict the length and don't automatically grant 3mth durations. In short, I think you can apply in Oct/Nov easily to avoid any issues around Dec processing.

I have never heard of any Embassy (Ireland included) asking for flight details of the EU Citizen. That seems way out of order.

[ciaramc]

Thanks Scrudu -

Visa applications by family members of EU citizens who wish to move to Ireland
As of 26 January 2009, all visa applications must be made online at www.visas.inis.gov.ie .
Once an application has been made online, the summary sheet should be printed and sent, along with the required documentation to the appropriate Embassy. Applications from Italy and San Marino should be sent to the Irish Embassy in Rome or the Honorary Consulate in Milan. Applications from Libya should be sent to the Irish Embassy in Cairo. See www.visas.inis.gov.ie for further details.

Spouses

•Signed application summary sheet and three passport photographs
•Passport.
•(For Spouses) Marriage Certificate – evidence (apostilled document) that marriage has been registered in applicant’s country of origin/residence. (We never regisitered anywhere as we married in Italy we have a international marriage certificate will this do? I never regisitered in Ireland cause the embassy informed us no need we married in Italy valid in Ireland also))
•(For Children) Birth Certificate (long form) for children under 21 years, parental consent, national identity card (signed if required).
•Evidence that the EU Citizen spouse is exercising their EU Treaty Rights by being employed/self employed in Ireland or engaged in a valid vocational training programme or has sufficient financial resources and comprehensive sickness insurance cover. (Thought we can stay 3 months without the need to exercise rights?)

The quote above i received from the Embassy as their official guidelines...in English and Italian.

This is what I received from CSS this morning

I wrote

I'm an Irish citizen living and working in Italy since 2002, I married my Moroccan husband in 2006 in Italy. My husband holds a Carta di Soggiorno (Residence card) as a family member of a EU citizen valid for 5 years. We would like to visit Ireland in January so we have been informed by the embassy that my husband would have to apply for a visa. WE have been told that we would have to buy tickets before we are issued the visa? My understanding is that this is not in line with the EU directive? Can I have some clarifications, in order for a visa to be issued we simply have to supply valid passports? Marriage certificate?

They replied

Reply
Thank you for your enquiry.

I have read the details of your enquiry.

Your situation very much depends on whether you and your husband are travelling together or not. In this respect, I wish to refer you to Directive 2004/38 on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States.

For family members who are not EU nationals travelling with an EU citizen, the Member State(s) to or through which travel takes place may require an entry visa, depending on the nationality of the individuals concerned. However, this visa should be granted free of charge and without undue formalities by the relevant consular authorities. Family members who are not nationals of an EU Member State are not entitled to the visa arrangements mentioned above when travelling alone. The freedoms apply to non-EU national family members only when they travel with an EU citizen. Non-EU nationals who wish to travel alone within the EU have to comply with the normal visa, if required, and other requirements for their nationality.

With regard to the residence card aspect, according to Article 5 of the Directive . “Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.â€

[acme4242]

Hi Ciara

EU Citizen Signpost Service (CSS) wrote

Your situation very much depends on whether you and your husband are travelling together or not..
Family members who are not nationals of an EU Member State are not entitled to the visa arrangements mentioned above when travelling alone. The freedoms apply to non-EU national family members only when they travel with an EU citizen. Non-EU nationals who wish to travel alone within the EU have to comply with the normal visa, if required, and other requirements for their nationality.

This answer you received is not fully correct. Please clarify with them.
Its your right from 2004/38/EC to have your spouse accompany OR join
you in another EU member state.
You do not need to bring your spouse on tow on the same flight.
You do not need to travel together

What is correct

Consular officers issuing the visas may not ask you to produce any documents (other than a valid passport and documents attesting to your family link with a Union citizen and proof of dependence, where applicable) such as to furnish proof of means to support yourself, travel tickets, employment certificate, pay slips, bank statements, proof of accommodation, means of subsistence, medical certificate etc or
ask you how much money you have to spend or ask you questions regarding the purpose and duration of your trip.

As confirmed by the European court of Justice and also acknowledged by the Irish Authorities in 2006

"http://www.europarl.europa.eu/registre/ ... 991_EN.pdf"
also


The Irish Permanent Representation (Irish Ambassador Bobby McDonagh)
replied by letter of 13 April 2006 in which they acknowledged the problems
Mr R.D. and his spouse encountered while travelling to Ireland and they
conceded that the requirements did indeed violate Community legislation.

They also informed that for the past twelve months, the requirements for
third country family members accompanying a Union citizen travelling to
Ireland are as follows – passports of the applicant and Union citizen, the
original marriage certificate and three photographs. Moreover, all Irish
Embassies and Consulates have been reminded of these requirements.