Are you really Irish?

malcolmrx · Post by **malcolmrx** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:31 pm

I know many people are embroiled in immigration dilemmas every day, but this topic is meant for those who waited (for so long) to be Irish and I'm one of them. Those who are married to Irish citizens and were born elsewhere or those stayed long enough here to be Irish.

If you'd meet someone and he or she asked you what's your nationality. Would you say I'm Irish?. Perhaps after getting that surprise look on the person#s face, you start to consider if I should rephrase it to "I've lived here long enough to be Irish" .. I feel that the group I referred to might still find a barrier in saying "I'm Irish" just because of the fact that we weren't born here..just an opinion I thought I might share it with you

ProudWhiteEuropean · Post by **ProudWhiteEuropean** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:00 pm

You are Irish only in nationality. However you are not an irishmen in the sense of culture or ethnicity.
The Irish are a distinct ethnic group, therefore you cannot be irish just because you have an irish passport.

acme4242 · Post by **acme4242** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:41 pm

I think George De Valero might not agree with you ProudWhiteEuropean, if this is too much for your limited education, please use Google to understand

ProudWhiteEuropean · Post by **ProudWhiteEuropean** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:16 pm

acme4242 wrote:I think George De Valero might not agree with you ProudWhiteEuropean, if this is too much for your limited education, please use Google to understand

George De Volero has an Irish mother, therefore he is ethnically Irish.
A black or brown person who comes to Ireland, or is born in Ireland is not ethnically Irish. Please use google to understand the definition for ethnicity.

2.a.ETHNICITY - Pertaining to race; peculiar to a race or nation; ethnological. Also, pertaining to or having common facial, cultural, religious, or linguistic characteristics, esp. designating a facial or other group within a larger system; hence (U.S. colloq.), foreign, exotic.
b ethnic minority (group), a group of people differentiated from the rest of the community by facial origins or cultural background, and usu. claiming or enjoying official recognition of their group identity.

And don't make assumptions about my education, I hold both a Bachelors and a Masters degree.

Post by **Obie** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:27 pm

Am i missing something here. Are you insinuating that someone has to be of a particular skin colour to be an Irish.

If you are born, bread, speak in Irish Accent, fully integrated into Irish Society, you are not Irish, simply because you are not of the right skin colour, but someone who has lived overseas for several year, never touched foot in Irish soil, cannot say anything about irish history or culture, is more Irish, simply because they are of caucasian dessent.

This is utter crap.

You seem to be dwelling in the stone age.

ProudWhiteEuropean · Post by **ProudWhiteEuropean** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:29 pm

Obie wrote:Am i missing something here. Are you insinuating that someone has to be of a particular skin colour to be an Irish.

If you are born, bread, speak in Irish Accent, fully integrated into Irish Society, you are not Irish, simply because you are not of the right skin colour, but someone who has lived overseas for several year, never touched foot in Irish soil, cannot say anything about irish history or culture, is more Irish, simply because they are of caucasian dessent.

This is utter crap.

You seem to be dwelling in the stone age.

Please look up the definition of ethnicity.

If you were born in ireland of Pakistani parents then you are an *ethnic minority, you are not ethnically Irish.

ProudWhiteEuropean · Post by **ProudWhiteEuropean** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:29 pm

Sorry double post *please delete

acme4242 · Post by **acme4242** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:51 pm

Countess Markievicz, you gobshite ProudWhiteEuropean

ProudWhiteEuropean · Post by **ProudWhiteEuropean** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:54 pm

acme4242 wrote:Countess Markievicz, you gobshite ProudWhiteEuropean

Post as many historical figures as you like. It does not change the anthropological definition of ethnic groups, and ethnic identity. And as for calling me 'gobshite', I want be conversing with you again.

acme4242 · Post by **acme4242** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:02 pm

names like Countess Markievicz and George De Valero are important in Ireland, you really should read more.

kevo · Post by **kevo** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:33 pm

the proud white european should read his own definition of ethnicity

"Also, pertaining to or having common facial, cultural, religious, OR linguistic characteristics"

Ethnicity is complex and can't just be restricted simply to the colour of one's skin.

Intersting point though raised by the OP and whether Ireland should have some form of evaluation of someone's "Irishness" in determining their application for naturalisation.

ProudWhiteEuropean · Post by **ProudWhiteEuropean** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:57 pm

kevo wrote:the proud white european should read his own definition of ethnicity

"Also, pertaining to or having common facial, cultural, religious, OR linguistic characteristics"

Ethnicity is complex and can't just be restricted simply to the colour of one's skin.

Intersting point though raised by the OP and whether Ireland should have some form of evaluation of someone's "Irishness" in determining their application for naturalisation.

Yes, I am aware of that. However, despite the complexities and contradictions of the definition of ethnicity, a black or asian person born and brought up in Ireland is not ethnically Irish.
You cannot sit here and tell me that a black person is ethnically irish. Ethnicity pertains to many characteristics, language and culture being only a handful of them.
All definitions of ethncity point to a general mode that physical attributes, ancestry and race are as fundemental in ethnic makeup and identity as cultural values.

kevo · Post by **kevo** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:17 pm

Proud White European, I would respectfully disagree with your interpretation of what is irish.

A person's race may be black or whatever, but he can still be Irish. I'm not saying that just because someone has a passport, or was born in ireland, that they're Irish. Often, immigrants may remain within the communities of their countires of origin and don't integrate at all. Of course, they can't be Irish.

However, if a person is born into an Irish community, integrate well etc., how can you say they're not Irish - just because they're black?

ProudWhiteEuropean · Post by **ProudWhiteEuropean** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:29 pm

kevo wrote:Proud White European, I would respectfully disagree with your interpretation of what is irish.

A person's race may be black or whatever, but he can still be Irish. I'm not saying that just because someone has a passport, or was born in ireland, that they're Irish. Often, immigrants may remain within the communities of their countires of origin and don't integrate at all. Of course, they can't be Irish.

However, if a person is born into an Irish community, integrate well etc., how can you say they're not Irish - just because they're black?

Yes, they are Civically Irish, however they are not ethnically Irish. I am sure you are aware of the difference.

kevo · Post by **kevo** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:34 pm

ProudWhiteEuropean wrote:
kevo wrote:Proud White European, I would respectfully disagree with your interpretation of what is irish.

A person's race may be black or whatever, but he can still be Irish. I'm not saying that just because someone has a passport, or was born in ireland, that they're Irish. Often, immigrants may remain within the communities of their countires of origin and don't integrate at all. Of course, they can't be Irish.

However, if a person is born into an Irish community, integrate well etc., how can you say they're not Irish - just because they're black?
Yes, they are Civically Irish, however they are not ethnically Irish. I am sure you are aware of the difference.

i think we'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of "ethnically Irish". But, they are cetaintly more than just "civically irish" - I wouldn't deny them the right of calling themselves Irish and wearing an Irish soccer jersey etc etc etc

ProudWhiteEuropean · Post by **ProudWhiteEuropean** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:41 pm

kevo wrote:
ProudWhiteEuropean wrote:
kevo wrote:Proud White European, I would respectfully disagree with your interpretation of what is irish.

A person's race may be black or whatever, but he can still be Irish. I'm not saying that just because someone has a passport, or was born in ireland, that they're Irish. Often, immigrants may remain within the communities of their countires of origin and don't integrate at all. Of course, they can't be Irish.

However, if a person is born into an Irish community, integrate well etc., how can you say they're not Irish - just because they're black?
Yes, they are Civically Irish, however they are not ethnically Irish. I am sure you are aware of the difference.
i think we'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of "ethnically Irish". But, they are cetaintly more than just "civically irish" - I wouldn't deny them the right of calling themselves Irish and wearing an Irish soccer jersey etc etc etc

Well agree to disagree then.

Post by **Obie** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:45 am

There is no scientific basis to this arguement of ethnicity, if it is based on race, besides ethnicity is a social concept developed by people.

There is no particular blood group that is purely linked to Irish, so you arguement don't hold any vericity.

The cultural link, the dept of one's integration in Irish Society and the linguistic ability makes one more of an Irish than anything else.

This is like a case of beauty in the eyes of the beholder.

There is less than 1 percent genetic difference between a Caucasian person and that of an Asian or Afro-Carribean.

An Asian or Afro Carribean person, may have more genetic similarities to a caucasian Irish than two Caucasian Irish.

I think a Caucasian SouthAfrican is as much a South African than a Black south African

ProudWhiteEuropean · Post by **ProudWhiteEuropean** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:04 am

There is no scientific basis to this arguement of ethnicity, if it is based on race, besides ethnicity is a social concept developed by people.

Would you like me to give you a book list that extensively contradicts you. From what extensive reading have you made to come to this conclusion. ?

Or have you just quickly googled a couple of internet sites.
If you have access to a university library I can advise you on many books on the scientific basis of ethnicity.

There is no particular blood group that is purely linked to Irish, so you arguement don't hold any vericity.

Rubbish. look at the origins of the R1b cluster called "Irish Type III". This is just one genetic marker unique to the Irish.
There has also been a genetic study by the Irish government that found that 97% of Irish men hold a unique marker called Haplo 1 on the Y chromosome

There are many genetic studies on different European ethnic groups. Thats shows the diversity of sub ethnic groups in the European genetic pool. All with unique genetic compositions and markers.

However, I am not going to go into deep discussion on this. I could be here for a long time.

The cultural link, the dept of one's integration in Irish Society and the linguistic ability makes one more of an Irish than anything else.

It makes the culturally Irirish, not ethnically Irish.

There is less than 1 percent genetic difference between a Caucasian person and that of an Asian or Afro-Carribean.

This is not relevent to my argument.

An Asian or Afro Carribean person, may have more genetic similarities to a caucasian Irish than two Caucasian Irish.

Europeans, especially western europeans are composed mainly of R1b1b2a1a1 Haplogroup genetic type. This is found only in europeans and europeans alone therefore your argument is not valid.

R1b1b2a1a1 Haplogroup map.

R1b1b2a1a2f2
This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker M222. It is particularly associated with the Irish and Scots. In this case, the relatively high frequency of this specific subclade among the population of certain counties in northwestern Ireland may be due to positive social selection, as it is suggested to have been the Y-chromosome haplogroup of the UÃ NÃ©ill dynastic kindred of ancient Ireland.

Post by **Obie** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:28 am

Okay, this genes is more prevalent on the Y chromosomes, which is found only in men.

Also the people in Basque country, has about 90-100% presence of it.

SOme people in area like Cameroun have been reported to have about 90%of this genes.

Are you saying a genes shared by caucasian people and to a lesser effect, some african people, which makes less than one percent of our genetic make up, found mostly on the Y chromosomes, makes someone who has never touched foot on Irish Soil more Irish, than a non-Caucasian child born and bred, fully integrated in Ireland.

When i see a caucasian person, i assume they are from Europe or western nation , but it is their disposition, the way they speak, act, that makes me link them to an ethnic group and certainly not the colour of their skin.

ProudWhiteEuropean · Post by **ProudWhiteEuropean** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:45 am

Okay, this genes is more prevalent on the Y chromosomes, which is found only in men.

Obviously

Also the people in Basque country, has about 90-100% presence of it.

R1b1b2a1a2f2 is unique to ireland

SOme people in area like Cameroun have been reported to have about 90%of this genes.

R1b1b2a1a1 not R1b1b2a1a2f2, which again is UNIQUE to ireland.

Are you saying a genes shared by caucasian people and to a lesser effect, some african people, which makes less than one percent of our genetic make up, found mostly on the Y chromosomes, makes someone who has never touched foot on Irish Soil more Irish, than a non-Caucasian child born and bred, fully integrated in Ireland.

No, I am saying that the genetic composition between the irish and non europeans is completely different. I am not denying we share 99% of genetic makeup with each other. However, you fail to understand the study of genetic composition in facial and ethnic sub groups.

we share about 90% Of our genetic makeup with flowers, get the point.

When i see a caucasian person, i assume they are from Europe or western nation , but it is their disposition, the way they speak, act, that makes me link them to an ethnic group and certainly not the colour of their skin.

Well for one, thing ethnicity is one of the most important factors when developing medicine based on genetic trials and treating illness and disease that is more prone in different ethnic groups. You said there were "no scientific basis for ethnicity, you are wrong, please find and read these books before you argue this point with me.
There are many more books that prove you wrong on your belief that there is no scientific basis for ethnicity.
The fact is that Ethncity IS a lot to do with the colour of your skin, where you are from, and whom your ancestors were.
And ethnicity is a very important scientific attribute that is always taken into account when performing and developing genetic based treatments medicines. There is a specific illness that is prone to the irish for instance, this is due ot their unique ethnic genetic marker
There is also conditions unique to the norwegians (claw hand), again this is due to their unqie ethnic genetic markers.

(you may be able to view these books online, or if you have access to a university or research library.)

Title Ethnicity, disability and chronic illness / edited by Waqar I.U. Ahmad.
Series "Race", health and social care
Publisher Buckingham : Open University Press, 2000.
Bib Id 213060

Ethnicity and health in England.
Balarajan, R. Other titles by Author(s)
Publication Date: 1995
Number: 0113219067

Ethnicity and health : reviews of literature
AHMAD, W. I. U. Other titles by Author(s)
Number: 1900640007

Ethnicity : anthropological constructions / Marcus Banks
Banks, Marcus Other titles by Author(s)
Publication Date: 1996
Number: 0415078016

meats · Post by **meats** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:38 am

Obie wrote:Am i missing something here. Are you insinuating that someone has to be of a particular skin colour to be an Irish.

If you are born, bread, speak in Irish Accent, fully integrated into Irish Society, you are not Irish, simply because you are not of the right skin colour, but someone who has lived overseas for several year, never touched foot in Irish soil, cannot say anything about irish history or culture, is more Irish, simply because they are of caucasian dessent.

This is utter crap.

You seem to be dwelling in the stone age.

Correct, and it is immigrants with the viewpoint similar to ProudWhiteEuropean's that create problems. There was an article by a Parisian teacher that i read recently saying that the Muslims in French schools didn't associate with being French despite them being 2nd and 3rd generation kids. They considered themselves as Muslims and then Algerians/Moroccans etc but not French. This is when problems arise and there are plenty of examples of trouble between the French police and Muslims arising over rumours being spread.

There is a similar problem in the UK with the Indians and Pakistanis, with them considering themselves as Indians or Pakistanis despite their parents being here since the 50s or 60s. Whilst not exactly the greatest (scientifically) test, the Tibbett Test can be used as a pretty good barometer here.

IrishTom · Post by **IrishTom** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:05 am

acme4242 wrote:names like Countess Markievicz and George De Valero are important in Ireland, you really should read more.

You are lucky there is no citizenship examination, you would fail miserably.

Eamon De Valera was born to an Irish woman. He was caucasian.

Constance Gore-Booth married a Polish duke, taking his surname, Markievicz. She was born in Ireland, to Irish parents. She was caucasian.

Post by **Obie** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:59 pm

Like i said Proudwhiteirish or whatever, there is no scientific basis to race.

It is like beauty in the eyes of the beholder sort of thing.

Humans are design to adapt to the environment. A caucasian person lives in a place with little sunlinght, so they have vitamin K to help them absorb the little sunlight in their environment.

An Afro Carribean lives in an environment with enormous sunlight, so they have melanine to protect their skin from the intnece sunlight. If someone lives in a place for a long period of time, the develop adaptation for the environment in which they live.

That is as far as it goes. Any further arguement holds no veracity whatsoever.

We have dealt with the genes arguement, and it holds no veracity either.

By definition, Irish is more than an Ethnic group. It takes more than a caucasian ethnicity to make someone Irish.

People who are born in Ireland, fully integrated into Irish society and culture, are as much Irish as a caucasian person, with similar attributes and upbringing.

ProudWhiteEuropean · Post by **ProudWhiteEuropean** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:30 pm

Obie wrote:Like i said Proudwhiteirish or whatever, there is no scientific basis to race.

It is like beauty in the eyes of the beholder sort of thing.

Humans are design to adapt to the environment. A caucasian person lives in a place with little sunlinght, so they have vitamin K to help them absorb the little sunlight in their environment.

An Afro Carribean lives in an environment with enormous sunlight, so they have melanine to protect their skin from the intnece sunlight. If someone lives in a place for a long period of time, the develop adaptation for the environment in which they live.

That is as far as it goes. Any further arguement holds no veracity whatsoever.

We have dealt with the genes arguement, and it holds no veracity either.

By definition, Irish is more than an Ethnic group. It takes more than a caucasian ethnicity to make someone Irish.

People who are born in Ireland, fully integrated into Irish society and culture, are as much Irish as a caucasian person, with similar attributes and upbringing.

Lets agree to disagree then.

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:01 pm

I was born in South Africa of South African parents. Two of my great grandparents emigrated there from Ireland the rest all came from western England. Would this make me Irish by these genetic tests?
Although I have an Irish passport I would be loath to claim to be Irish like some of you.

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Are you really Irish?

Are you really Irish?