EC long-term residence permit for non-EU nationals

[waldymar]

Hello,

I'm a non-EU national residing almost 5 years in Italy. Soon I'll get EC long-term residence permit. According to directive (Directive 2003/109/EC) I have a right to move to another EC member state and work there. My question is about the practical procedure. For example, if I want to move to Germany to work. What is the order of my move? Should I find a German employer before? Can I move to Germany, find an employer, apply for a German residence and work permit and immediately start working for him?

Thanks in advance.

[Wanderer]

How are u qualifying - as a spouse?

[waldymar]

How are u qualifying - as a spouse?

No spouse, on my own. As I wrote, I've been living in Italy for almost 5 years, hence, I'll get a EC long-term residence permit.

[Wanderer]

How are u qualifying - as a spouse?

No spouse, on my own. As I wrote, I've been living in Italy for almost 5 years, hence, I'll get a EC long-term residence permit.

Not sure - wouldn't u get Italian PR first, under Italian Residency rules and then citizenship (quick Google says that's a ten year process) - upon receipt of that then u can move around under the directive.

At the moment I can't see how u r considered to be under EEA rules.

[waldymar]

Not sure - wouldn't u get Italian PR first, under Italian Residency rules and then citizenship - upon receipt of that then u can move around under the directive.

At the moment I can't see how u r considered to be under EEA rules.

Not sure if you see what I'm trying to say. I'm legally residing in Italy for last 4.5 years having a current Italian residence permit. After accumulating 5 years I'will have EC Long-term residence permit (it's a sure fact). Then, there is a directive 2003/109/EC which regulates non-EU nationals in possession of EC long-term residence permit, saying its possessor can move to another EU member state to work. So, my question is how in practice is respected this directive?

[Wanderer]

Not sure - wouldn't u get Italian PR first, under Italian Residency rules and then citizenship - upon receipt of that then u can move around under the directive.

At the moment I can't see how u r considered to be under EEA rules.

Not sure if you see what I'm trying to say. I'm legally residing in Italy for last 4.5 years having a current Italian residence permit. After accumulating 5 years I'will have EC Long-term residence permit (it's a sure fact). Then, there is a directive 2003/109/EC which regulates non-EU nationals in possession of EC long-term residence permit, saying its possessor can move to another EU member state to work. So, my question is how in practice is respected this directive?

Exactly, Italian Residency Permit - as far a I can see u r in Italy under Italian Immigration Law, not EEA law so the directive won't apply to u until u become an Italian Citizen.

Please explain how you think u r covered by EEA law here?

[waldymar]

Exactly, Italian Residency Permit - as far a I can see u r in Italy under Italian Immigration Law, not EEA law so the directive won't apply to u until u become an Italian Citizen.

Please explain how you think u r covered by EEA law here?

Appreciate your attention and willingness to help me, but I feel you don't have knowledge about Council Directive 2003/109/EC. As I explicitly said a couple of times, this directive regulates non-EU or non-EEA nationals with long-term residence permit in a EU space. It has nothing to do with EEA citizens. If it interests you please consult link below:

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/ ... 034_en.htm

[Wanderer]

Exactly, Italian Residency Permit - as far a I can see u r in Italy under Italian Immigration Law, not EEA law so the directive won't apply to u until u become an Italian Citizen.

Please explain how you think u r covered by EEA law here?

Appreciate your attention and willingness to help me, but I feel you don't have knowledge about Council Directive 2003/109/EC. As I explicitly said a couple of times, this directive regulates non-EU or non-EEA nationals with long-term residence permit in a EU space. It has nothing to do with EEA citizens. If it interests you please consult link below:

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/ ... 034_en.htm

OK, I'm leaving this one alone...

[86ti]

As I explicitly said a couple of times, this directive regulates non-EU or non-EEA nationals with long-term residence permit in a EU space. It has nothing to do with EEA citizens.

You are right of course. Have you made sure that Germany has fully implemented the Directive (some member states appear to have not)? My understanding is that getting a job still may depend on quotas. I can't advice you but if you understand German you could try http://www.info4alien.de/cgi-bin/forum/ ... i?board=EU for more information. (Well, maybe you could also try it in English.) You would have to register.

[waldymar]

Have you made sure that Germany has fully implemented the Directive (some member states appear to have not)?

Yes, I think Germany adopted this directive, this is what I found - http://www.zuwanderung.de/nn_1120100/EN ... 85792.html. But, I'm not sure how in practice it works. Actually, it was my appeal here.

My understanding is that getting a job still may depend on quotas.

No clue about quotas. I've never heard about them.

I can't advice you but if you understand German you could try http://www.info4alien.de/cgi-bin/forum/ ... i?board=EU for more information. (Well, maybe you could also try it in English.) You would have to register.

Thanks a lot for the link. I will try it, although don't speak German. Yesterday, I wrote to German Migration Board with the same question. As soon as I have a reply, I will post it here. But, my focus is not only on Germany. Personally, beside Germany, I'm interested in Belgium, Luxembourg.

[lifeart]

The EU-PR for third country nationals is not as straightforward as it looks if you are seeking to be employed. Some member states, among them Germany, will put the non-EU nationals' application through a "labour certification" process to see (throughout the entire EU), if there is no EU-citizen available for the job in question. In other words, you will not have an easy time to work for someone if the kind of job you are looking for would actually attract many job seekers that are EU cotizens. Self sufficiency status will work, and also if you work for yourself and/or are establishing some kind of a business

[waldymar]

The EU-PR for third country nationals is not as straightforward as it looks if you are seeking to be employed. Some member states, among them Germany, will put the non-EU nationals' application through a "labour certification" process to see (throughout the entire EU), if there is no EU-citizen available for the job in question. In other words, you will not have an easy time to work for someone if the kind of job you are looking for would actually attract many job seekers that are EU cotizens. Self sufficiency status will work, and also if you work for yourself and/or are establishing some kind of a business

You are 100%. This is what I'm currently facing. Employers put EU nationals in priority. But, I think that long-term PR is simplifying the procedure and will eliminate the tedious work permit application.

[lifeart]

You are right in the sense that there is no seperate work permit application, at least in some of the member states.
But there is still the issue of having to go through a labour market evaluation as a third country national, even with EU-PR, if you want to work for someone as opposed to being self-employed. This depends on the member state, and also their labour market situation. So, really not straight forward at all. You need to inform yourself specifically about the current labour market in your target member states, and more specifically how they relate to your current qualifications. In some cases you may get away with little or no labour certification, in others it may be just as rigorous as if you had no EU-PR at all.
So, as they say in France: ça depends....
Good luck, and bonne chance

[Peachey]

Hiya, did you make any progress at all with the permit? I'm hoping to get mine, would love to know if they actually acknowledge it at the questura and if so how long it takes them to issue it....thanks!

[STUMERANDUCH]

What is happening with the EC permit is just sad. The EU countries like Germany transposed the Directive into their National law, Yet, Germany is not practically implementing the Directive. Rather than implement this Directive, Germany is bent on fraustrating EC immigrants. First they tell you to find job, after geting the job offer, they dont issue you the permit and they dont write you. If you go to their office, they tell you Germans dont have jobs and then you begin to take a lawyer, they dont reply to the lawyer and when you go to court, their court sides them and decides the case against you with the provision that is contained in the Directive 2003/109 that the salary is insufficient for your up keeping, and the court orders them to deport you to the EU member state you came from.So after waisting one year or more, you become stranded and even find it difficult to move out because you have exhausted all your Euros. It is very very sad. The EU should revisit this Directive again so as to make it possible for you to work with the EC permit without applying for a work permit in EU member countries

[exoticbeauty]

Hello,
I am russian citizen married to a romanian since 2004,i had a "residence card for family members" so we were going to Bulgaria with it,my passport and marriage certificiate(which i always presented and they look at me,like "whats this for"and give it back to me right away,leaving with my passport and residence card,bring back after stamp,and if somehow i didnt give the marriage certificate,they were yelling,we cant let you through etc,but i still had the paper with me and went through ).But 6 month ago i applied for permanent residence,since i fit all the conditions.And now i am a holder of "permanent residence card for family members"it looks exactly the same like one before,just have a word "permanent"and longer validity period,which is 10 instead of 5.
by the directive 2003/109 i hoped that now i can travel(like a tourist,for a week or so) alone within the EU(besides those 3 countries uk,irl,denmark),so i wrote an email to embassy of finland,asking if i can visit Finland on my own since now i am permanent resident of EU state,i noted that the derictive i mentioned above might allow me to do that.But i was disappointed by the answer "you do need a visa to visit Finland,but since u r married to EU citizen,it is free for you"
Please,tell me,can i or can i not travel within EU if i was granted permanent residence status(but Romania which is EU but not Shengen),i no longer understand who to belive,last time when i was passin bulgarian customs,with my husb,residence card for family members and valid passport,they didnt want to let me cross the border(we were on car),they said that i am not allowed to pass,becouse i told them that we were going to BG for a few hours and come back same day(as we do often,we live near the border and my passport is full of BG stamps)He said,since im russian,married to romanian,they only can allow me to transit BG,but not visit it,so i said ok,im going to next country whatever it is after you,he got mad red face,stamped my passport and we went throuh.

[Wanderer]

Hello,
I am russian citizen married to a romanian since 2004,i had a "residence card for family members" so we were going to Bulgaria with it,my passport and marriage certificiate(which i always presented and they look at me,like "whats this for"and give it back to me right away,leaving with my passport and residence card,bring back after stamp,and if somehow i didnt give the marriage certificate,they were yelling,we cant let you through etc,but i still had the paper with me and went through ).But 6 month ago i applied for permanent residence,since i fit all the conditions.And now i am a holder of "permanent residence card for family members"it looks exactly the same like one before,just have a word "permanent"and longer validity period,which is 10 instead of 5.
by the directive 2003/109 i hoped that now i can travel(like a tourist,for a week or so) alone within the EU(besides those 3 countries uk,irl,denmark),so i wrote an email to embassy of finland,asking if i can visit Finland on my own since now i am permanent resident of EU state,i noted that the derictive i mentioned above might allow me to do that.But i was disappointed by the answer "you do need a visa to visit Finland,but since u r married to EU citizen,it is free for you"
Please,tell me,can i or can i not travel within EU if i was granted permanent residence status(but Romania which is EU but not Shengen),i no longer understand who to belive,last time when i was passin bulgarian customs,with my husb,residence card for family members and valid passport,they didnt want to let me cross the border(we were on car),they said that i am not allowed to pass,becouse i told them that we were going to BG for a few hours and come back same day(as we do often,we live near the border and my passport is full of BG stamps)He said,since im russian,married to romanian,they only can allow me to transit BG,but not visit it,so i said ok,im going to next country whatever it is after you,he got mad red face,stamped my passport and we went throuh.

You need an EU citizenship before you can travel alone without visas. Your EU rights derive from ur EU spouse.

[86ti]

I am russian citizen married to a romanian since 2004,i had a "residence card for family members" so we were going to Bulgaria with it,my passport and marriage certificiate(which i always presented and they look at me,like "whats this for"and give it back to me right away,leaving with my passport and residence card,bring back after stamp,and if somehow i didnt give the marriage certificate,they were yelling,we cant let you through etc,but i still had the paper with me and went through ).But 6 month ago i applied for permanent residence, ...

I assume your permanent residence card was issued by the UK. Article 5(2) of the DIrective 2004/38/EC appears to apply only to residence cards not permanent residence card but Article 5(4) states that, should you not have a visa but can proof your relationship to the EEA national (and are travelling together with him/her or joining him/her) by other means (marriage certificate), you should be able to enter a member state.

I am not sure why you would think that Directive 2003/109/EC would be of relevance here.

[exoticbeauty]

well,explain then,what is the benefit of permanent residence then?
my card was issued by Romania as i said before or i think i did.
Last time when i was in imigrant office to take my fresh permanent residence permit,they gave me a book,which is called "guide for third country citizens" but it was printed in russian language,becouse of my citizenship.and there it says "if you are family member of romanian and you hold a temporary residence card,you can travel within EU with your spouse,if you have PERMANENT residence card you can travel within EU ALONE"
also,romanian state allows you to enter without visa if:
You do not need visas if
have a residence permit in EU/EEA, as family member of a citizen of EU / EEA
have a permanent residence permit in an EU / EEA member state
So i thought that i can enter another EU state on the same base ,if i dont plan to stay more than 90 days

[exoticbeauty]

Residence card for family member of a Romanian citizen
l Is granted to family members of Romanian citizens after the necessary checks of
the made by ORI. These may include: verification of documents proving stable
relationship between partners, home visits, interviews, etc..
l Types: temporary (granted for a period of 6 months - 5 years) or permanent
(granted for a period of over 10 years)
l Benefits: free access to employment, access to all forms of education and
training, social security, health and social protection, the ability to travel outside the country with the spouse without a visa (temporary residence) or
unaccompanied (permanent residence)l Permanent residency is solicited under the same conditions as permanent
residence.
l Both residence card can be successively renewed.

Same benefit is for other categories of non-eu who hold PERMANENT residences which is not based on bein a family member of eu citizen/romanian

[exoticbeauty]

I am not sure why you would think that Directive 2003/109/EC would be of relevance here.

well becouse i am a third country citizen,holdin a permanent resident permit,things in my family do not work good and we might split up,so then im no longer under 2004/38 directive...and the 2003/109 says that you can move to another member state(with some conditions of course) but it says "once you moved to another state,you have to apply for residence before your 90 days expire " so how could i possibly move to another state,look for job or univercity to study and see if i can find a place to live etc if i cant visit that country ...maybe im wrong and i just see what i want to see,but i though it was logic that i can enter any state now(exept uk,irl and denmark),will i stay up to 90 day or will i ask for residence its my own business,for the moment i like it in Romania,but i wanted to visit other states as a tourist,though i could and romanian imigrant office says that i CAN visit other states without husband if im married or even if i was never married but if i hold permanent residence of EU and i do

[86ti]

If this "residence card" was issued under Romanian national law than 2004/38 wouldn't apply to you anyway.

[exoticbeauty]

i didnt ask if 2004/38 apply to my case,i know it does,becouse it has been checked since 2007 many times,just some custom workers seems to be less informed than the ones who cross the border.
My question was about drective for third country nationals who is granted long term residense status by european standarts.Which has nothing to do with me being a family member of EU at this point.
But it seems that u r not getting my point. either didnt read 2003/109 either you know it so well by your own experience and you want to tell me that i can not enter any other EU state with a permanent permit issued by one EU state.
the card is issued by european standarts under directives from EU,adopted to national law as well ,but not changed in a favor for anyone,its simply translated in romanian language,word to word to the original one...
my card looks exactly like romanian citizen's ID,just it has an european flag in the center of it and says im "permanent resident and family member" if i divorce it will be changed to a small one,pink with blue if i remember correct which actually was by germans and in Germany,becouse Romania didnt have such technology (back to 2004-2007)

[86ti]

I think, you wll have to find out if your particular residence permit is in the 'List of residence permits referred to in Article 2(15) of Regulation (EC) No 562/2006'. I suspect only current Schengen members can report their residence permits in this way to the EU comission.

[exoticbeauty]

Maybe,i have to find out on what base romanian immigrant office publishes the info that ANY permanent resident of Romania has the same travel rights as romanian citizens.Becouse they clearly wrote it in a guide for non-eu citizens book.They also say,the only difference between resident and citizen of Romania is that the first one cant vote or be participate in elections