HiPG, Benefits Etc.Does applying alone contradict your visa?

[saayinla]

For instance the HiPG. If I apply and It was not granted, does that nulifies My Tier 1 Visa. Because The home Office is not very clear about this. My Wife got the pack to apply for the grant and I told her I believe its public fund but not sure because it wasnt very clear at that time late 2008... So she called the DWP/HM revenue asked them an dtold them she was on a dependent visa for HSMP etc, They told her to still send the form in and she included my NI tax ref etc..... We never heard anything from them again regarding it until 6 months later when I checked My bank account only to see a payment of £190 which I couldnt figure out where it came from, but later realised it was the Grant , because they never wrote a letter to say they were going to give it to her or not an dthey did not notify us that the payment was made at all.
How does one go about this....

[shabz_81]

This is exactly what happened to my wife. The midwife completed the form and she sent it off. As she is not able to open a bank account she wrote a covering letter with my bank details. She also stated that she was on a visa and that her visa states no recourse to public funds and wasn't sure whether the Hipg was a public fund.

5 weeks later we decided to give them a call. They mentioned that her form was incomplete and that they were going to pass on her details to the Home Office in order for them to decide whether she is eligible for the £190 plus it being an issue with immigration that they would need to deal with this. They said they would either ring or write to her. We have not hearding yet.

We have not received any money but we are still worried about this because she applied for it and they will have a record that she did.

I think you should speak to an immigration adviser about this and perhaps pay back the money and write them a covering letter to say you wasn't sure at the time.

[John]

For instance the HiPG. If I apply and It was not granted, does that nulifies My Tier 1 Visa. Because The home Office is not very clear about this.

That is actually quite an understatement! Indeed I would go as far as saying that the Home Office behaviour as regards the Health in Pregnancy Grant is abysmal.

Why? Although UKBA have added a reference to the Health in Pregnancy Grant to various application forms, suggesting that it is Public Funds, the law has not been changed, and the definition of Public Funds has not been altered to include the Grant.

So until the definition of Public Funds is altered, no one should be concerned about claiming the Health in Pregnancy Grant.

[jedward]

For instance the HiPG. If I apply and It was not granted, does that nulifies My Tier 1 Visa. Because The home Office is not very clear about this.

That is actually quite an understatement! Indeed I would go as far as saying that the Home Office behaviour as regards the Health in Pregnancy Grant is abysmal.

Why? Although UKBA have added a reference to the Health in Pregnancy Grant to various application forms, suggesting that it is Public Funds, the law has not been changed, and the definition of Public Funds has not been altered to include the Grant.

So until the definition of Public Funds is altered, no one should be concerned about claiming the Health in Pregnancy Grant.

John, your message is intriguing. I'm in the position that others on the board have mentioned -- my wife claimed the fund at the urging of her midwife. (We did some research but didn't realise that it was public funds.)

Can you explain what you mean by the definition of Public Funds not having been altered to include HIPG? Where is the definition of Public Funds?

[John]

The definition of Public Funds is in para 6 of the Immigration Rules. Click here to view the first part of the Rules. You will see that para 6 is merely a long list of definitions.

No mention of HIPG in the Public Funds definition.

[jedward]

The definition of Public Funds is in para 6 of the Immigration Rules. Click here to view the first part of the Rules. You will see that para 6 is merely a long list of definitions.

No mention of HIPG in the Public Funds definition.

Thank you, John.

[mirza]

Hi,
Please help. I have same problem. My wife who is on Student Dependent Visa has received the HiPG £190 which we are not aware that it is come under Public Funds. Our Mid wife said you can claim this Grant and even we ring the HMRC and explain them the situation and they said send the application form and if it is successful then this means you are eligible to have this Grant. now We are gping to apply for the Tier 1 General Visa. Will this situation can cause problem if yes then WHAT SHOULD I DO.
Thanks to all
Any One please

[mirza]

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:03 am Post subject: Same Problem! Really very worried

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,
Please help. I have same problem. My wife who is on Student Dependent Visa has received the HiPG £190 which we are not aware that it is come under Public Funds. Our Mid wife said you can claim this Grant and even we ring the HMRC and explain them the situation and they said send the application form and if it is successful then this means you are eligible to have this Grant. now We are gping to apply for the Tier 1 General Visa. Will this situation can cause problem if yes then WHAT SHOULD I DO.
Thanks to all
Any One please

The definition of Public Funds is in para 6 of the Immigration Rules. Click here to view the first part of the Rules. You will see that para 6 is merely a long list of definitions.

No mention of HIPG in the Public Funds definition.

[John]

Given that you have actually taken the bother of quoting what I posted, why have you even got a query?

What is it that you are not understanding?

[mirza]

Hi John. thanx for reply.
Well John if you dont mind please just need some detail answer on this post which is exactly my point as well

"hi John,

my husband just called the HiPG helpline to confirm whether i was eligible for this grant and was told that as long as it says 'NO RECOURSE TO PUBLIC FUNDS' on my visa, which means i am' 'subject to immigration control ''and that this HiPG does come under PUBLIC FUNDS , therefore i am Not eligible for it.....

we r confused as to who to call becos everytime we call we end up getting a different answer from Hipg HELPLINE...

also, on the HiPG form ,it asks me for my NI number.. so if i did receive the grant and went on to say NO on my ILR application would it not be lying..?and so would i not end up jeopardising my ILR for a mere 190£..?

how do we clarify this.?

thanx"
By
afshaan
Newbie
Post Link is:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=53776

King Regrads

Given that you have actually taken the bother of quoting what I posted, why have you even got a query?

What is it that you are not understanding?

[John]

You are raising some interested points, and the more I look at this matter, the more I am disgusted by the incompetence of the Government on this issue.

Some webpages to illustrate. Firstly if we go here ..... click here ..... we see that it clearly mentions "you are subject to immigration control". However, if we then click on the More about the Health in Pregnancy Grant link near the bottom of that webpage, we get up another webpage, and strangely the immigration control matter is missing.

So we really need to look at the actual legislation to see which webpage is correct. The relevant legislation is .... The Health in Pregnancy Grant (Entitlement and Amount) Regulations 2008. There we find that whilst there is mention of those not ordinarily resident in the UK, there is no mention of those subject to immigration control.

Regulations 8 & 9? Very detailed and technical but actually only relevant at all had HiPG been added to the Public Funds definition. That is, if HiPG had been added, then it details who can claim HiPG even though they are subject to immigration control. An example would have been a wife who is married to say a British Citizen, where the wife is subject to immigration control, can nevertheless claim HiPG, because of para 6B of the Immigration Rules.

But as HiPG has not been added to the Public Funds definition, regs. 8 & 9 are effectively doing nothing!

So to summarise, we seems to have the situation where not only have UKBA "jumped the gun" as regards HiPG being added to their forms in the Public Funds section, we also seem to have HMRC also having added an immigration control question to the HiPG claim form, when that action is not justified.

The helpline that was phoned? Many such helplines are staffed by under-trained people. Just make the HiPG claim anyway. Should the claim get rejected then do report back by posting on this Board.

By the way, looking ahead to after the birth, and possible Child Benefit claim, what is the nationality of you and your wife? And if either of you worked in another country, apart from that of your nationality, before coming to the UK, details please.

[mirza]

Hi John Thanx alot for your very brief reply.
Right, Me and my wife both from Asian country NON of us is UK national. I am currently on PSW Visa and my wife join me about an year ago. Thats our current status. Now my wife is Pregnant and MidWife adviced her to claim this HiPG as all Pregnant women do in this country, and as I already mentioned in previous post we rang HMRC and explain the current status of us in UK and they said send the application and if it is sucessfull then you are eligible to have HiPG. (this all happened in very early 2010). Then in about last month we have recive the HiPG £190. Now at the time of Cliam no one told us this comes under Public Funds and we were completly unaware about this situation. Now I am going to apply for the Tire 1 Genral this week and I am very very about "Public Funds" section in the Form.
if yo need more information please let me know.

Thank you John

You are raising some interested points, and the more I look at this matter, the more I am disgusted by the incompetence of the Government on this issue.

Some webpages to illustrate. Firstly if we go here ..... click here ..... we see that it clearly mentions "you are subject to immigration control". However, if we then click on the More about the Health in Pregnancy Grant link near the bottom of that webpage, we get up another webpage, and strangely the immigration control matter is missing.

So we really need to look at the actual legislation to see which webpage is correct. The relevant legislation is .... The Health in Pregnancy Grant (Entitlement and Amount) Regulations 2008. There we find that whilst there is mention of those not ordinarily resident in the UK, there is no mention of those subject to immigration control.

Regulations 8 & 9? Very detailed and technical but actually only relevant at all had HiPG been added to the Public Funds definition. That is, if HiPG had been added, then it details who can claim HiPG even though they are subject to immigration control. An example would have been a wife who is married to say a British Citizen, where the wife is subject to immigration control, can nevertheless claim HiPG, because of para 6B of the Immigration Rules.

But as HiPG has not been added to the Public Funds definition, regs. 8 & 9 are effectively doing nothing!

So to summarise, we seems to have the situation where not only have UKBA "jumped the gun" as regards HiPG being added to their forms in the Public Funds section, we also seem to have HMRC also having added an immigration control question to the HiPG claim form, when that action is not justified.

The helpline that was phoned? Many such helplines are staffed by under-trained people. Just make the HiPG claim anyway. Should the claim get rejected then do report back by posting on this Board.

By the way, looking ahead to after the birth, and possible Child Benefit claim, what is the nationality of you and your wife? And if either of you worked in another country, apart from that of your nationality, before coming to the UK, details please.

[John]

I am not sure what else I can add. Whatever UKBA say, HiPG is not within the definition of Public Funds, as in para 6 of the Immigration Rules, so how can you possibly have a problem?

There is nothing else to do ... apart from starting Court proceedings against UKBA, getting them to remove the mention of HiPG from their forms ..... and against HMRC for adding an Immigration Control question to the HiPG application form, getting them to remove that question ... and of course I am not going to the expense of starting such Court proceedings, and strongly recommend that no one else goes to that expense either.

Actually there is something else that I do very regularly, and that is to check if a change has been made to the definition of Public Funds!

[sama]

Hi Mirza,

Any luck with your application?

ta
Sama

Hi John Thanx alot for your very brief reply.
Right, Me and my wife both from Asian country NON of us is UK national. I am currently on PSW Visa and my wife join me about an year ago. Thats our current status. Now my wife is Pregnant and MidWife adviced her to claim this HiPG as all Pregnant women do in this country, and as I already mentioned in previous post we rang HMRC and explain the current status of us in UK and they said send the application and if it is sucessfull then you are eligible to have HiPG. (this all happened in very early 2010). Then in about last month we have recive the HiPG £190. Now at the time of Cliam no one told us this comes under Public Funds and we were completly unaware about this situation. Now I am going to apply for the Tire 1 Genral this week and I am very very about "Public Funds" section in the Form.
if yo need more information please let me know.

Thank you John

You are raising some interested points, and the more I look at this matter, the more I am disgusted by the incompetence of the Government on this issue.

Some webpages to illustrate. Firstly if we go here ..... click here ..... we see that it clearly mentions "you are subject to immigration control". However, if we then click on the More about the Health in Pregnancy Grant link near the bottom of that webpage, we get up another webpage, and strangely the immigration control matter is missing.

So we really need to look at the actual legislation to see which webpage is correct. The relevant legislation is .... The Health in Pregnancy Grant (Entitlement and Amount) Regulations 2008. There we find that whilst there is mention of those not ordinarily resident in the UK, there is no mention of those subject to immigration control.

Regulations 8 & 9? Very detailed and technical but actually only relevant at all had HiPG been added to the Public Funds definition. That is, if HiPG had been added, then it details who can claim HiPG even though they are subject to immigration control. An example would have been a wife who is married to say a British Citizen, where the wife is subject to immigration control, can nevertheless claim HiPG, because of para 6B of the Immigration Rules.

But as HiPG has not been added to the Public Funds definition, regs. 8 & 9 are effectively doing nothing!

So to summarise, we seems to have the situation where not only have UKBA "jumped the gun" as regards HiPG being added to their forms in the Public Funds section, we also seem to have HMRC also having added an immigration control question to the HiPG claim form, when that action is not justified.

The helpline that was phoned? Many such helplines are staffed by under-trained people. Just make the HiPG claim anyway. Should the claim get rejected then do report back by posting on this Board.

By the way, looking ahead to after the birth, and possible Child Benefit claim, what is the nationality of you and your wife? And if either of you worked in another country, apart from that of your nationality, before coming to the UK, details please.

[sama]

Is there anybody with success story (Claimed HiPG and got ILR)?

Sama

I am not sure what else I can add. Whatever UKBA say, HiPG is not within the definition of Public Funds, as in para 6 of the Immigration Rules, so how can you possibly have a problem?

There is nothing else to do ... apart from starting Court proceedings against UKBA, getting them to remove the mention of HiPG from their forms ..... and against HMRC for adding an Immigration Control question to the HiPG application form, getting them to remove that question ... and of course I am not going to the expense of starting such Court proceedings, and strongly recommend that no one else goes to that expense either.

Actually there is something else that I do very regularly, and that is to check if a change has been made to the definition of Public Funds!

[del_piero_3]

I just wanted to add my 2cent on this matter, it may help someone in future.

Am British and my wife is on a 2year spouse visa. When we had our baby we too applied for HIPG and were successful. After a week I realised that HIPG was listed under "no recourse to public funds" so we asked them to take the money back because we did not want any problems when applying for ILR.

Anyway they said they will investigate this matter further i.e. write to head office and also to home office, after a very long wait, about 3months we received a letter that stated that we are eligible for the HIPG because one of the partner is British so therefore it will not be classed as "recourse to public funds" when applying for ILR.

Basically the letter quotes the rules and why we are eligible for the grant.

[cogunde]

Just to say that I also recently discovered that HIPG is public funds whilst going through the SET(O) form for me and my wife. We didn't know this at the time of claim, and wouldn't have claimed if midwife and GP were not insistent that we were eligible. I blame myself for not carrying out more research at the time.

Anyways, we have now contacted HMRC and they are sending us a repayment letter so that we can repay the money. This is quite a welcome development, as our ILR is due in the next couple of weeks! If it wasn't for this forum, we would not have known and may have gotten to the PEO appointment and experienced a shocker. Thanks everyone for sharing!

[John]

Who on earth told you that HiPG is within the definition of Public Funds. Arrh yes UKBA told you that, and indeed HiPG is mentioned on a number of their forms, and indeed they have a webpage that lists the benefits that are defined as Public Funds.

The problem is that it is all rubbish and the totally incompetent UKBA have forgotten to do the obvious ... change the definition of Public Funds, as in para 6 of the Immigration Rules. Check it for yourself .... click here ..... scroll down to para 6, which is just a list of definitions, and do you see HiPG there in the definition of Public Funds? No!

Sheer incompetence by UKBA.

But cogunde, on what basis are you claiming ILR? And your wife claiming ILR? And that of your wife? Also the nationality of you and your wife?

[cogunde]

Hello John, my wife and myself are both Non-EEA nationals, and I have a work permit that was issued in April 2005. We have been here since June 2005.

I perfectly understand your logic re HIPG. But sadly (no offense intended), you won't be the caseworker considering the ILR application and I don't think the caseworkers doing so are as knowledgeable as yourself. I just wasn't willing to compromise my wife and myself on the basis of £190. It was an easy decision, frankly.

I understand the principle behind your statement, but in cases where there is ambiguity in the interpretation of immigration provisions, only applicants get to suffer whilst their life is subject to being put on hold whilst things are being sorted out (i.e. if an immigrant gets refused ILR because a caseworker misinterpreted the provisions, it's the immigrant that is put in limbo whilst things are being sorted out via appeals etc - life goes on for the case worker). Sometimes, I am not sure the battle is worth fighting. Just my honest opinion.

Many thanks to you and the other moderators. You guys are doing a stonking job!

[John]

I perfectly understand your logic re HIPG. But sadly (no offense intended), you won't be the caseworker considering the ILR application and I don't think the caseworkers doing so are as knowledgeable as yourself.

An interpretation of that is that you are prepared to let UKBA act illegally. UKBA cannot say that they are not aware of the situation. I personally have pointed out this situation to them a number of times, that they have yet to add HiPG and indeed ESA to the Public Funds definition.

UKBA have a history of this sort of thing. After Tax Credits were introduced in April 2003 it took them nearly 2 years to add that benefit to the Public Funds definition. And we are still living with the affect-effects of that delay.

[cogunde]

Sadly, yes. I am tired of shifting goal posts and incessant rule changes whilst the game is already in play. It's very dispiriting.

About four years ago, a decision was taken by the government to extend the number of years required to qualify for ILR from 4 to 5, and the implementation was immediate - no consideration given to people like myself who were already within the system and subject to prevailing rules and provisions as at the time we came into the UK. Of course, since then HSMP UK won a judgement that meant this provision had to be rescinded for HSMP holders pre-Nov 2006, but for work permit holders like myself, there was no out. I have had to wait an extra year to qualify for ILR whilst my HSMP friends got theirs a year ago.

All considered, I think walking away from a "fight" with the government, particularly one I am unlikely to win is good sense. Discretion is the better part of valour. If it was just me, I would be mightily tempted - but I have got a wife and child to think about as well. That may sound like cowardice to some, but it's being responsible in my book.

[cogunde]

Just a bit of an update to say the HIPG team sent us a letter to repay the Health in Pregnancy grant since both my wife and myself are subject to immigration control which I have now done. We are applying for ILR in the next couple of weeks and I will keep everyone updated on how we get on.

[BB1234]

Hi John,
I was just wondering if this is still the case with Health in Pregnancy Grant not being on the public fund list.
I am on a Tier 1 General Migrant visa and my husband is a british citizen.
Though when I claimed the HiPG we were not married and he was only a resident(ILR).
My husband and baby son both now have British citizenship and I am applying for ILR this week.
I am just really worried that because I recieved the HiPG that I will have problems.
Do you suggest ticking yes or no to the question 'Are you recieving any public funds?'
Thank you in anticipation.

[John]

BB1234, stop worrying! For two reasons! Firstly the incompetence of UKBA continues and HiPG (and ESA) have yet to be added to the Public Funds definition.

Secondly, even if Public Funds had been added to the definition, being married to a British Citizen, you would still be allowed to claim it.

Do you suggest ticking yes or no to the question 'Are you recieving any public funds?'

The form SET(M) form is badly designed, as regards Public Funds, and really does not cope with the eccentricities of the legislation. The suggestion is do the following, which for people in your situation does not seem to cause a problem. That is, answer the Public Funds question "Yes" but then tick the relevant benefits only in your British husband's column .... Child Benefit, Tax Credits and HiPG ... and leave those benefits unticked in your column.

[BB1234]

Thank you John so much for your help.

The only query I still have is that I am actually filling out the Set(O) form as am applying on my own as I have been living and working in the UK for 5 years on Work Permit and then Tier 1 General Migrant. So the public funds question relates only to me. Also when I recieved the HiPG we were not married and my now husband was not a citizen only a permanent resident at that time.

Thank you!