naturalisation and work in India

aali · Post by **aali** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:17 am

Grateful if the esteemed members of this forum could give me some idea on what to do about this peculiar situation.

I have been living in the UK with family for the past 5 years. Recently we got our naturalisation approved and are awaiting the ceremony. But I have now also received a firm job offer in India, which I am keen to take up.
As I understand, once I acquire UK passport,I need to get either employment visa or PIO card to be able to take up the assignment in India. Unfortunately I have just 3 weeks, not enough time to do it all, am yet to fix up even the ceremony date (received the letter only yesterday). Ideally I want to take the UK citizenship as well as the Indian job, which I think is not possible within the short period of time I have. In this scenario could some one please advise me on the various options I am evaluating?

1. Can I attend the ceremony, get the certificate, but do not get the UK passport for the time being, instead continue to use the Indian passport for travel? If this is possible, I can get my UK passport when I am back in the country say after a year or two for settlement.

2. Is there any way to delay the oath ceremony by say two years on a ground like this?

2. If the above is not possible, I am thinking of letting my wife and son take the ceremony and become Uk citizens while I do not attend the ceremony and retain the Indian citizen ship & ILR status so that I can take up the job in India without any probelm. (My family will continue to live in the UK even after I am gone.). In this case

a) If I come back to the Uk within 2 years (before the ILR gets invalid), do I hav eto do the entire 3 years as spouse of the Uk citizen to qualify for the citizenship? Or , as someone who had cleared the application earlier and forced to go on employment reasons do I get any special consideration?

b) If I come back to the Uk once in a year on vacation, will this be sufficient to keep my ILR live even if I do not come back for settlement within 2 years?

Apologise this is a long list of queries, will highly appreciate any advice please...

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:22 am

aali
1. Once you take the oath, you effectively lose Indian citizenship even if you haven't received the British passport, so this is not an option as you will be commiting an offence if you use your Indian passport in India.
2. If you try to delay the oath due to taking full time imployment in India, you risk losing your naturalization because your stated intent to stay in the UK becomes in question.
2a. If you go back to India and return within 2 years your ILR will be valid but you will have to count the 3 years all over again. Remember also that you will have already stated in your original application that you planned to stay in the UK and that will be contradicted by your actions. It may raise some questions as commitment to stay in the UK is an important criteria for naturalisation.
2b. Coming to the UK on vacation every year on vacation will keep your ILR alive, but it is not the intent of the law that you continue to to this indefinitely. If it is apparent to the IO that you are only here on vacation, they may (and should) refuse entry as a permanent resident. Since you are a visa national, they may refuse you entry, full stop, at that time.

My advice is get the British Citizenship ASAP and start the application for PIO. You have waited a long time to get BC and it would be a waste if you threw it away.

Maybe there is some flexibility with your new employer regarding your start date. Or you could work unofficially for them ("attending meetings") on a temporary visa until your papers are in order. This happens all the time in the UK; why can't it happen in India!

If there is no flexibility with that employer, I'm sure there will be other jobs in India.

Joseph

olisun · Post by **olisun** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:06 pm

go for a private ceremony if you can afford it and if it's very urgent

Chess · Post by **Chess** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:34 pm

Whatever you do - think long term and chose wisely

aali · Post by **aali** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:43 pm

Dear Joseph, Olison & Chess,

Thanks a ton for your advice and clarifications. Looks like either or other situation here, unless I postpone the joining date.

Thanks you very much, this is a fantastic board, will post my experience once I get through it so that would be helpful for others...

PB · Post by PB » Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:21 pm

Does the PIO card let you work in India? You should consider applying for Indian Overseas Citizenship.

Regards,
PB

aali · Post by **aali** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:33 pm

As I understand IOC still has not strated rolling, they are making final changes..? Yes PIO card would let you work in india without restriction, except for board levels appointments which needs special permission. Mountaineering and research related works also have some restriction as I understand...cheers...

aali · Post by **aali** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:13 am

Today is my ceremony! (Btw, the indian company is prepared to wait ...)

Will do the ceremony this afternoon and plan to go straight to the post office and send off the application. (to make things easier, my countersignatory is my guest at the ceremony too, easy for signatures etc!!)

Two tips that might be useful for others in line:

1. My name is exceptionally long and so could not be fitted within the columns in section 10 (counter signature). The solution given by passport advice line is, leave it blank and attach a separate letter stating the reason for having left it blank...But fill all other columns in section 10 and should be signed and dated by the counter signatory.

2. According to section 3, one need to enclose all 'uncancelled' passports along with the application. In my case, my ILR is in my previous, cancelled Indian passport. So if I send 'uncancelled' alone as asked, it would not show anything that says I have ILR or any kind of permission to stay in the UK. Asked Advice line again, according to them only the current passport is required. Now I wonder, they do not seem to want to check your stamping etc, then what do they do/ check with the passport...? Any thoughts...?

Will let you know when I get my passport...

olisun · Post by **olisun** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:28 am

I had my ceremony yesterday and was boring.

sorting my passport application now

aali · Post by **aali** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:23 am

I got my passport yesterday. Damn impressed with the speed.....

I applied for my pass port on 22 sep and received it on 28 Sep! (I applied thru post office checking service)

now for the litmus test...lets see how long a PIO card takes....

Any one got any idea how long it takes? Which office is better? London / Birmingham?

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:32 am

aali

In answer to your question:

Asked Advice line again, according to them only the current passport is required. Now I wonder, they do not seem to want to check your stamping etc, then what do they do/ check with the passport...? Any thoughts...?

I guess the only reason they ask for the passport is to further identify the applicant. After all, any countersignatory could have one of the listed positions, but still be totally dishonest!

I think this countersignature practice is rather dumb and arcane, especially from a security standpoint.

Back to the parallel discussion about what happens to your ILR after you naturalise and get a British passport. The answer seems to be clear now: nothing! They could take the opportunity to definitively cancel the visa with a stamp and via the computer system (like the USA which keeps your Green Card at the ceremony). They tell you in the naturalisation materials given out at the ceremony that the "ILR no longer applies to you" but as posters have attested, their ILR was still valid (and accepted by the IO) when they went through immigration.

Joseph

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:45 am

aali

By the way, how long did your naturalisation process take? When and where (NCS or by post?) did you apply and when did you get your approval letter and ceremony invitation letter?

Joseph

basis · Post by **basis** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:19 pm

aali wrote:I got my passport yesterday. Damn impressed with the speed.....

I applied for my pass port on 22 sep and received it on 28 Sep! (I applied thru post office checking service)

now for the litmus test...lets see how long a PIO card takes....

Any one got any idea how long it takes? Which office is better? London / Birmingham?

Apply in London - should not be more than 15 working days - they dont keep your passport so that's good part. Other option is take India Visitor visa - it is issued on same day then and there. Once you reach India apply for PIO. You can apply for PIO in India as well.

By the way - have you established whether you can work or continue in employment based on your PIO. I know that's what they say but do you know any praactical example or have you consulted with any legal advisor etc. Anyway if your Indian employer knowingly have agreeed to take you on board then it should be good enough.

Good luck.

By the way did you go pvt for the ceremony ?

arun · Post by **arun** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:48 pm

Hi,

I live in UK with permanent residence status. I am eligible to get my UK citizenship during end of March. I am basically a Indian citizen. Is it possible to get Indian PIO card before getting UK citizenship. I could not see any clear message on HCI,London website. Could any clarify my query?

I would really appreciate to get response.

Thanks

Regards
Arun

basis · Post by **basis** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:36 pm

Arun,

With due respect your question is like asking - I am a British citizen and hold British Passport can I get UK ILR (permanent residence).

PIO is for non- Indian citizens who originate from India. When applying for PIO you have to submit non-Indian valid passport. Hope this clarifies.

basis · Post by **basis** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:44 pm

Aali,

Any further updates. Your response to my / Joseph's queries would help many of us.

Thanks in advance.

basis · Post by **basis** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:13 pm

Aali,

Probably you can straightaway go for IOC, The Ministry of Home Affairs have updated their site on dual citizenship as follows -

Main site - http://www.mha.nic.in/oci-main.htm

FAQ - http://www.mha.nic.in/oci-faq.pdf

Application Form - http://www.mha.nic.in/oci-form-XIX.pdf

Brochure - http://www.mha.nic.in/oci-brouch.pdf

arun · Post by **arun** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:27 pm

Hi,

I really appreciate your reply and information.

Arun

aali · Post by **aali** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:07 pm

Joseph, basis and others,

Apologies, been busy haggling with my new employer and stuff...so could not access the board for a few days...

Joseph, My naturalisation application took just 7 days for approval. I had gone thru Haringey, the 'no appointment' service, and the lady was very professional and helpful. (Remember, anybody above 18 should attend in person, in case some of you are taking your partners' application as well... ).

On 19 Sep I contacted the county council to find out about the pvt ceremony and the lady at the council goes: 'would you like to come this thursday, the 22nd?' I ask 'howmuch it'll cost?' 'Oh, nothing, it is an arranged ceremony and we happened to have some free slots...' I grabbed it ...seem like they had some last minute cancellations and my call happened at the right time..Otherwise the councils are pretty loaded, my wife had spoken to them earlier and was given end of october as the ceremony date. I also spoke to the ceremony manager at the venue, according to him the whole of the month ahead is booked up...

On PIO, basis, no, I do not personally know anyone who has taken up employment in India as a PIO. I have appraised the HR of my plan, she seems cool about it (i hope she does not get back with some new story later...!)

On the other hand, various indian high commission sites catagorically say (though the London one does not) that one could take up employment in India with a PIO card. Based on that I guess it should be OK (fingers crossed...). Wish me luck, mate...will let you know how it goes...btw, why do you think there could be an issue...?

On time lines for PIO, London office told me 2-3 weeks , but said there is no way it could be done in lesser time. Where as B'ham said 4 weeks , but added, 'come over, we'll see what we can do to do it faster for you as a special case ( I had told her about my jon in India) '. So I chose B'ham.....I submitted my application yesterday, and they have asked me to go back on 14 th to collect the card...not bad...btw, yes, as you said they kept all my passports including the previously cancelled Indian passport....

cheers.

aali · Post by **aali** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:11 pm

Basis,

Here is an MHA link on PIO and employment....

http://mha.nic.in/pioscheme.htm#Benefits

Thanks for the IOC link, the indian embassy in london still has the old info.....any idea if they have started accepting applications?

basis · Post by **basis** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:59 pm

No as of now our great MHA has kept the implementation on hold. So no one has yet started accepting the applications.

yorkking · Post by **yorkking** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:35 pm

aali, it is great to hear that ur application took only 7 days.
when did u apply and when did u get it back?
can u pl timeline the events for the benefit of all of us?
yk

basis · Post by **basis** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:50 am

Does anyone know what it the status of a person in respect of Indian employment between the time one acquired UK citizenship (the time when an existing Indian citizen will loose the Indian citizenship) and the time when one gets PIO card. To give an example -

X takes oath on 1st Nov
X gat UK passport on 8th Nov
X applies for PIO on 10th Nov
X receives PIO on 30th Nov

If X is in employment of an Indian company (deputed to the UK) then from 1st Nov to 30th Nov what's the status of X in terms of employment.

rogerroger · Post by **rogerroger** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:19 pm

i guess the private ceremony is a private oath taking,correct? how much does it cost?
how often is the public ceremony?

though they do ceremonies on weekends, or do i need take a day off work?

aali, what do you mean by board level appointments?

what is the purpose of ILR?

They tell you in the naturalisation materials given out at the ceremony that the "ILR no longer applies to you" but as posters have attested, their ILR was still valid

aali · Post by **aali** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:43 am

I received my PIO card yesterday. That took 10 days from 04 oct to 14 oct....i'm off to india this weekend....

rogerroger, they mean the board of directors of the companies....The ceremony normally isan hour long , guess they are on the week days generally. The best bet is to call up the county coucil and ask...

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when did u apply, aali