HSMP First Appeal- Rejection

[amhilde]

Hi all-

My parents called and told me Ive been rejected again ( on first appeal) for the same reason of education. This is completely dumbfounding- they violated their own caseworking rules ( re: CV is NOT an acceptible form of evidence) and maintain that because my US masters in economics is a different subject from the US bachelors in anthropology, that it remains at PGDip level. They only know of this difference because it states that on my CV, the only degree I sent in was the US masters.

I have worked in the UK, studied in the UK, lived in the UK, wrote my masters thesis on the UK gambling market, met with extremely senior UK officials in regards to the writing of their gambling bill and yet the Home Office does not deem me sufficiently skilled enough to be let into the country to work. At this point I will be calling solicitors to see if there is any other avenue of defense for this on my second appeal. I will not let this go without a fight.

[ukindia]

hi sorry to hear abt ur refusal

I am in thesame boat as i received refusal too for my first review

I have already applied for 2 nd review as I have heard that in 2 nd review many got approval

hope for the best getting penalised for no reason its our bad luck what else

[amhilde]

I know but its goddamn annoying. I plan to lodge a few complaints upon completion of the process. Keep us all posted on your progress!

[bani]

Hi Amhilde,

Sorry to hear about your refusal, really seems unfair.

Do you think you can get a letter from your university or department giving details of the difference between a Bachelors in Economics and a Masters? Course requirements, how much more advanced a masters is in terms of what you had to learn, etc. Also the requirements of entering the masters program. And why this masters should not be treated as Bachelor level. Include the course curriculum for both degrees.

UK universities are really very different from American ones in that they don't have a balance of general subjects, just one's major (even their A-levels is already specialised). I think this is why it's hard for HSMP caseworkers to understand how a bachelor's degree in one subject is enough background to take a masters in another. Even though this is quite common in other countries where the university coursework is more well-rounded (one of the geneticists I went to grad school with did his bachelors in music, and he's one of the most successful scientists around). If you can ask a former professor to emphasise that you've gained some training in economics through your Bachelor's degree in Anthropology (maybe specify the ecnomics and economics-related classes you've taken), and how this was taken further in the Masters, that might help. Also point out that the masters curriculum is rigorous enough to make experts of students from other undergrad fields.

I know it is a lot of trouble, but if you can get outside experts (other than NARIC... maybe even a UK economist?) to point this out to the HSMP team, maybe it will be obvious enough to them!

I think it's useless to point out that they should not have looked at your CV in your appeal (because the CV should support the application anyway, not cause doubts to any claims), instead defend why your masters degree is equivalent to a UK one in economics. I suggest you focus on that.

Hope this is helpful, good luck!

[amhilde]

bani-

All that information was included in the appeal letter. I pointed out that my written masters thesis was 60,000+ words and was a highly detailed piece of original research- this was evidenced in the application by the original letter of acceptance for the presentation of this paper at an international conference. I also included a section in the appeal letter about 1) how i did a minor in economics (also listed on that damn CV) and how that prepared me ot take a masters, and cited the relevant website information and cited DIRECTLY in the appeal document the relevant information from my schools website as to what classes are required for the minor- in addition to the information that if i didnt have a minor in economics I would have been forced to take these classes prior to formally entering the program, and I wouldnt have receieved any poncy-mule PGDip for my troubles either. 2) I also cited someone at the British Council, who are themselves dumbfounded at this decision, who stated that my qualifications would have been accepted by any UK university for study immediately at the masters level.

My application also included a letter from my thesis advisor/mentor as to what my skills are, and how they are applicable to the UK. He also teaches in the UK, which i pointed out in the appeal letter, and considers my level at equivalent to the UK masters level. This man is not a lightweight, but is the #1 global authority on issues of gambling. He even included in the letter the fact that he recently helped the DCMS with the writing of the UK gambling bill that went through Parliament earlier this year. I pointed THIS out in the appeal letter too. There ARE no gambling policy analysts in the UK and they are going to need them in the next few years. Its not what I would have to do exclusively, but my university and program is the main educator in the world for this field. I dont expect them to know that at the HSMP dept, but for the LOVE of GOD if you cannot ascertain that I have a specialist background given ALL the information submitted (which wasnt even that much) then you shouldnt be working in any job requiring a brain.

I covered everything possibly wrong in that appeal letter and pointed out EXACTLY where in my application was supporting evidence. Frankly, I dont think they read any part of the appeal letter and just looked at the original decision and passed it on as that. You bet its unfair and if thats how they are running that ship, then it really makes you wonder. I cant reapply either, I have passed the age of 28 and I need to qualify under those criteria. This isnt an issue of being hysterical and desperate on my end, its a case of being allowed to work in a country where i can make a definite, positive contribution to the economy with a specialized skill set that I have. To be denied on an issue as stupid as this is unbelievable, especially when its under a program designed to ENCOURAGE the highly skilled to migrate to the UK, which, lets face it, is NOT a land of milk and honey, to fill positions that the local work force cannot fill. You know why they cant fill it? Because they specialize too early at school. But thats besides the point.

Im going to call tomorrow and see what the problem was, AGAIN. Bunch of ingrates working there....

Sorry for the length, im just so upset and so stunned that this remains a problem. I even took two extra courses in theoretical finance from the LSE one summer to enhance my program of study- which took a year and a half longer than a typical UK masters program and required more classes..

*sigh*

[bani]

amhilde, i am as dumbfounded as you are. i can't imagine how they could ignore all the evidence because they can't get over this different bachelors and masters degrees. and you even had a minor in economics, which is a significant amount of coursework!

let us know what happens when you call them, hopefully you have a productive conversation with your caseworker or a manager.

btw, have you tried speaking to someone at NARIC about your degrees? i understand they caused the problem in the first place, but if you can convince them, maybe you can convince the HSMP team.

[JhonnyECU]

dearest A,

so sorry to hear about this horrible news.

well, im very interested in knowing the feedback coming from those solicitors, caseworker managers, and naric information officers.

please keep us updated, ok?

best of luck!

jhonny

[Ashwin2005]

amhilde my dear,

Extremely sorry to learn about your case.
Insisting that both Master and Bachelor degree should be of the same discipline appears to be a harsh requirement.

This question is for moderators: For admission to MBA degrees, the requirement is any bachelor degree. If an Electrical Engineering graduate does an MBA, wil they award only 15 points instead of 25?

[amhilde]

Hi again-

I phoned the HSMP team early this morning because I couldnt sleep. Eventually I was put through to the senior team caseworker. I explained the situation to him and just could NOT get accross the point that they had initially gone off a cv and that I could prove my degree was of the same standard. He said that since i was "admitting to him on the phone that I had two seperate degrees, that it was a by-the-by arguement" Frankly, I think he knew that I knew that he was talking bs. He made it sound like all caseworkers check every applicant to ensure that they have the right educational level. I even said, incredulously, "you mean to tell me that if someone doesnt submit their undergraduate qualification that you phone them up and request that? Sir, I find that extremely hard to believe and frankly think thats a false statement." This conversation went round and round my arguement that they went off a CV which is not formal admissable evidence and his arguement well, you put it ni there so you are screwed to my arguement of well, if i HADNT put it in there would the result have been any different to his arguement about how they "check" these things and can only go by what NARIC tells them. The conversation ended with his suggestion I get a NARIC assessment that says I have the equivalent to a UK masters and send that in with my second appeal. Oh, but I still only have 28 days, which means Ive got two weeks left.

I had called the NARIC ppl prior and they sounded nice, they need to look at my transcripts and degree certificates etc. I see that if I want to attempt this I would have to use the Fast Track service to turn something around in 48 hours. Im not sure if this is worth a $250 gamble. If i get it, then Im fine wtih the HSMP apparently, but my transcripts show classes from my masters course of study that are crossed into the MBA program here and teh Applied Econ department because its a smaller school. Im worried that these courses will be looked down upon or not considered at the same rate or however the hell they do that. The transcripts wil clearly show my undergraduate classes in economics at least, and the two semesters I spent writing that 60,000+ word thesis. At the same time, it annoys me to NO END that the MBA is automatically assumed to of the UK taught masters level, when there are significant differences in the quality and level of MBAs across the country. At this school its a glorified undergraduate degree- I took soem of those classes and sailed through without problem.

Needless to say Im quite upset about this and only got about 2 hours of sleep last night and am calling in sick to work and school because three hours of crying does not make you look or feel your best. I dont think that I can win at this and Im tired of talking to a brick wall that will not listen to my grievances. I did everything by the book and was penalized for it- its enough to make me find a frat boy today who can do me up a fake id changing the last number of my birthday on my drivers license and reapplying- just to see what would happen. What hurts more than anythign is knowing eventually Im going to have to tell all my academic advisors and mentors and everyone else here who helped me and were so excited for me that I failed, and that I was penalized for pursuing the natural human process of curiosity and my desire to learn more about the world.

Im going to take a few days and get this out of my system- 8 years of dreaming is a lot to work out- and then decide if I even want to pursue the NARIC route or call it quits for good, though Im leaning towards the latter. I cant put my family through my being upset anymore, and the level of anxiety this process has produced is unreal and it has worn down my nerves to the very end. Im exhausted and just want to get on with the rest of my life and put this behind me.

Good luck to the rest of you, and thanks for the support. Ill let you know if I decide to go the NARIC route in the end.

[rella]

If you really want to come to the UK, then it's worth it to spend the money to get the NARIC document to show your Masters is equivalent to a UK Masters. BTW, I'm assuming that you have a Masters from a legimate school, since you had an advisor in the UK working with you. Is it a school with a name that the caseworkers might recognize?

For others who are earlier in the process, ALWAYS include every bit of documentation for all coursework. My husband has years of graduate school in math and physics, but never completed his PhD, so we didn't claim points for anything beyond a B.S. We still included all of his transcripts. If in doubt, provide extra info.

This doesn't help you now, but what will help you is to approach this as dispassionately as possible. Go ahead and vent and get it out of your system. Vent here, vent to your friends, but don't vent to the HSMP caseworkers. They have total discretion in your case. The more respectful and calm you are when dealing with them, the more likely they are to help you.

If I were you, I'd get together my NARIC equivalency, my B.A. transcripts and send them a very polite letter, apologizing for not providing those documents earlier and asking them if they would please consider them in re-evaluating your case. Offer to pay a fee if necessary for reconsideration (since you can't risk an fresh app of over 28 ). The last thing you need to do is get in a battle of trying to prove you're in the right with the HO, because they simply don't care. If they feel you didn't provide docs for your BA and they aren't giving you points because of that, all you can do is try to rectify the situation by providing them with documents that they want.

Whatever you do, no matter how upset you are, don't show it to them and try as hard as you can to avoid appearing arrogant or condescending to them. As an American myself, I think I can tell you that many Americans appear like completely arrogant jerks and you need to bend over backwards to avoid looking that way. People have come on these boards, thinking that being American makes them special and means that their education and qualifications are superior to other countries and that they will automatically be approved. Besides that being FAR from the case, you have to keep in mind that many people outside the U.S have that perception before you ever open your mouth, so they are already predisposed to think of Americans that way. So, try very hard to show respect for their immigration system and the caseworkers.

[amhilde]

Thanks for that rella, but believe me, I know and understand humility and the need for it on this planet ex-USA given our retarded president. All I wanted was to argue my side of the case and I did that with complete respect for the caseworkers- unlike most of our countrymen I am capable of arguing with large words and without profanity or the raising of voice and can listen. It is not my fault that they did not adhere to their standards and what they state in their official documents. I know they dont care, but at least I have a basis for the second appeal.

Ill go ahead and pay for the NARIC Fast Track assessment, though I fear that it will be of no use. I went to a small state school (U of Nevada, and yes, it is accredited, if it wasnt they couldnt receive govt funding) and as a result our masters program for economics crosses over into business administration and applied economics because the department is not large enough and does not have enough econ graduate students to support a large program. It shows on the transcript that I took masters level courses in three different departments, though it will also show that I took a considerable amount of economics classes as an undergraduate for the minor. The one major thing this university is known for, outside of its engineering and mining departments, is its strength in the economics of gambling and policy analysis. This is, obviously, not well known outside of this industry and the governments and think tanks that deal with the issue. I really object that ANY MBA degree is considered equivalent to a UK taught masters because the classes in the program here are exactly the same as those taught to the undergraduate business major. If I had an MBA, which is far less work at most schools out of the Top 50, this wouldnt be a problem.

Ill call NARIC and see what i need to submit and do as such, but I really dont hold out much hope for this at all.

[Ashwin2005]

amhilde,

My suggestion also is to submit your degree for NARIC assessment. Since the caseworker has told you to try for NARIC assessment, this would be the bestway for you. You have done your Masters, and it is from an accredited university, then why worry?

Send your Master degree, transcript, and the university details including web site address of the University to NARIC. I suggest you to go for fast track option.

Please do not give up. You will succeed in your second review.

[SpiderKing]

Sorry to hear that Amhilde,

I really doubt on transparency of HSMP. Do you think that lawyer help is required?

Regards
SK

[amhilde]

Ashwin- I have a masters but the sticking point is that I did it in a different subject than the undergraduate degree. NARIC routinely claims that with the US if it isnt a further specialization of the undergraduate degree then its only worth a PGDip- regardless of how many classes or how long your thesis was.

Im going to try for it- my transcript is in front of me now and it shows two semesters of thesis and the title of my thesis- Gambling Changes in Great Britain- Proposed Changes, Possible Outcomes- on the transcript too ( and what I assume NARIC will see as 15 credit hours for the thesis- equivalent to a 17 week period of full time study). It also says Minor- Economics under my undergraduate degree title. Im thinking maybe I will get a letter from the dean of the business school or the head of my department attesting to the use of MBA courses in the EC masters program and a letter from my advisor/mentor about the position and regard of the Institute for the Study of Gambling and Commercial Gaming in the industry and how not only is this in the business school and economics department, but that i did my study in relation to it as well. Ill talk to NARIC and see what they want. Do you know if they can fax a decision? My time line is getting cut close- if I do the 48 hr Fast Track and its posted to my parents in Las Vegas then they can easily overnight it up here and I can fax it over to the HSMP team the next day- that would be ok.

God I dont know anymore. This all seems so damn convoluted and retarded. And no, SK, there isnt any transparency

Rella- I read your story and can understand better that youve been through the mill too.

and BTW- as far as I can tell there is NO special appeals team.

[Ashwin2005]

Dear Moderators,

Can you please throw some light on this?

(1) If Master degree should be from the same discipline as undergraduate degree, how degrees like MBA (which requires any Bachelor degree for admission) will be assessed? MBA= Masters or Bachleors?

(2) When submitting HSMP application, one is required to submit only the highest degree and its transcript, and not required to submit under graduate degrees. Right?

[amhilde]

Ashwin- I can tell you with almost absolute CERTAINTY, because I read it in the caseworker manual I believe, that ANY MBA from ANYWHERE will be allocated as a Masters, regardless of what any other degrees obtained are because it is the NARIC belief that the MBA throughout the world is of the same standard.

And id like to see a caseworker comment on the degree requirement. I repeatedly brought that up to the senior caseworker I spoke to and he kept circumventing my question of "hypothetically, if I had only submitted the masters degree and the resume was not in there, would I have received the points?" He also kept saying im not "being singled out" when I damn well do feel singled out- I was judged on an unofficial document that apparently no one else has a problem with- I call that being singled out.

But yes, Ashwin, if you have an MBA youll get 25 points.

[rella]

My guess is that the problem isn't that the degrees are in different areas. I'm sure many people have degrees in different areas. I know lots of people who've been accepted for grad school programs in the UK w/out having an undergrad degree in the same area.

I think the problem is that the B.A. wasn't submitted as evidence. Amhilde, did you submit transcripts for the M.A.? Sorry if I missed it, but I didn't see what evidence you submitted for the degree, whether it was the actual diploma or your transcripts.

The sticking point might be that you only submitted proof for the last degree (one degree only), but put on your CV that you had two. They may have been confused about which degree meant what and found it confusing that you didn't give your B.A. proof. I don't quite understand why you didn't give them both degrees? I only had to give one degree to get spouse points, but I still gave them ALL of my transcripts and I have 3 degrees.. BS, MS and PhD. I figured it couldn't hurt to show that I was qualified to get a job as a spouse to make sure that we got those points. For the main applicant, they really need to see proof of your entire educational history.

Send in your transcripts from both degrees and your NARIC equivalency. That may clear up their questions with your case. I think that there's some kind of miscommunication on both sides--yours and the caseworkers. The fact that you have different subjects for your BA and MA may be making them think that they are two different bachelors, which would not give you the 25 pts for a masters. So, just clear that up with transcripts from both degrees and let NARIC sort it out for you. That should get you your 25 pts.

Just to make sure.... what is the actual title for your degree? Does it have the word "masters" in it? I still think that the problem is you only sent in evidence of one degree.

[amhilde]

Hi rella- Its nice to talk to an American about this.

My degree title is, and im looking right at it right now, Master of Science with a major in economics ( so an MS in Economics, which it also says on my transcript) I submitted the original masters certificate in its fancy little puffy folder, with my application. I even attached, on the back, a post-it with my name and address in case it was lost in the shuffle. It also notes the date all spelled out in letters as these things are wont to do.

My undergraduate certificate, which was not submitted since I went by the guideline that only the highest had to go, was ( again, looking right at it) Bachelor of Arts wiht a major in Anthropology. (or BA as noted on my transcript)

Now, the really retarded thing about all of this is that i DID in fact send an official transcript as part of my proof of age. I couldnt find my birth certificate on short notice ( I had thought it was in a box of files and it wasnt) and I wasnt born in this state, and I wasnt sure about the photocopies, so I sent in an unopened, official transcript with my original NHS card from when I worked in the UK previously, to make sure all bases were covered. The transcripts issued here list the birthdate and SS# on them.

My rejection letter is, as follows, directly from the letter ( I keep all this stuff in one file in my office)

Academic Achievement- 15 points Awarded-

"The evidence submitted did not support your claim of 25 points for this section. The HSMP guidance notes (Paragraph 2 Annex C) states that qualifications have to be the equivalent to the recognized British standard of Bachelor's Master's or PhD to be awarded the respective points for each level of qualification. The qualification you sumbitted with the application was checked against guidance given by the National Academic Recognition Information Centre for the United Kingdom (UK NARIC). The Master of Science qualification gained in the United States of America, is not equivalent to a British Masters. It is equivalent to a Post-Graduate Diploma. The basis for this comparison states that a Master's from an American Institution is only comparable to a British Masters degree when it is a further specialization following a Bachlor degree major program in the same subject. As your Bachelor degree was in Anthropology we can only award points for your Bachelor degree, and points have been awarded accordingly."

The transcript, by the way, was never opened- there is special sealing tape on the back that was not broken.

I only sent the one degree because 1) thats what it said I could do and 2) I didnt want BOTH getting lost.

I argued in my appeal letter that it was highly unlikely that every applicant to the program had degrees in the same subject throughout their academic history, especially with Americans since we study minor subjects. What Im concerned about now is going into NARIC with THIS sort of language from NARIC themselves as quoted by the HSMP:

"The basis for this comparison states that a Master's from an American Institution is only comparable to a British Masters degree when it is a further specialization following a Bachlor degree major program in the same subject"

I only did a minor in economics as an undergraduate, and probably took exactly the same amount (equivalent) or more than what would be necessary for a PGDip in the UK. A PGDip is only 9 months, covers intro topics, has a paper or two and thats that- you can enter a masters program from that. If you look at it from the British POV- I could have done Law and related courses from A level up through undergraduate and suddenly decided I wanted to sit a masters of economics. All it would take is a PGDip and voila! into a masters program that takes a year. TO me a minor + a US masters with its length of time should be equivalent to a UK person going PGDip and into a one-year masters program.

Can I ask what subject areas you and your hubby have gone through?

Im worried that if they already inputted this information into the NARIC database that NARIC will turn around and tell me exactly the same thing, thereby wasting $250. I know I wont know for certain until I try, or that the HSMP ppl didnt have any information about the minor subject area ( not that most British people know what this is anyway- it completely confounded the first caseworker I spoke to), but Im not sure i have a very good feeling about it.

Now im starting to wonder if this degree issue isnt why the acceptance rate for Americans nosedived last year from 80%+ to just over 30%. To get hung up on a technicality like this I think tends to shut out people who could make a valuable contribution and would integrate completely with UK society.

[Ashwin2005]

[quote="rella"]My [b]guess[/b] For the main applicant, they really need to see proof of your entire educational history.[/quote]

rella,

Nowhere in the HSMP guidelines, did they say that we should send the proof of entire education history.

The guidelines only state the following:
"Qualifications have to be to the recognised British standard of Bachelors, Masters or PhD (as validated by the National Academic Recognition Information Centre (NARIC) current database) to be awarded the respective points for each level of qualification.......Points will only be scored where evidence is provided that the individual has been awarded the relevant academic or professional qualification from an accredited institution (See the glossary for definition)."

"Accredited Institution – A place of study that is recognised as an institution of higher education by NARIC. Professional bodies must be recognised by the equivalent UK regulatory authority."

In case a Master degree is already recognized by NARIC as equivalent to British Masters, I feel it is enough to submit only the Master degree and its transcript. What is the point in submitting so many transcripts of undergraduate degree?

However, from what amhilde has posted,it appears that American Master's is recognized as British Masters only if it is an extension of under graduate programme. (This looks very strange to me, as US has the global recognition for its higher education). So, in amhilde's case, he may need to provide evidence that his Master degree is a specialization of his undergraduate degree.

amhilde,

Even if the title of your Bachelor's is BS in Anthropology, if you can provide the following information to NARIC, I feel it may help:

(1) Proof that your Bachelor degree has courses in Economics
(2) Proof that your admission to the MS in Economics was based on your Bachelor degree (regardless of the discipline) with Economics courses

Please give a try, GBP 215 should not deter you from going through fast track option. In my opinion, HSMP is almost like a turning point and a major decision in life. A small amount like this should not decide if you should make your further steps.

I have seen some members posting here that they got approval after three applications have been refused. So, don't give up. All the best to you.

[Cane]

Amhilde,

I have skimmed through your posts and really feel for you. As others have pointed out, you do have limited practical options available, albeit expensive ones, but that is not the point of my post.

I don't believe that caseworkers have something against Americans in particular as you seem to imply. I am not American but have lived there most of my life, got my BS, MS and PhD there - all from a top-3 USNews & World Report school; yet had to go through a number of asinine background checks whilst applying for my HSMP + EC by virtue of my nationality I am sure. In fact most Americans are oblivious to the inane, degrading, often irrational treatment that non-Westerners invariably have to endure at the doorstep of the Western world, indeed specifically the US. So if you can, take heart in that. You aren't being singled out as an American.

Also, as an obviously articulate and urbane writer, you may have read Kafka's prologue to "The Trial" called "Before the Law"? If you haven't, please read. What you are going through is in the nature of the beast called bureaucracy, and it has been that way since time immemorial. And few civil systems, at least in the West, are more bureaucratic than those of the UK in my experience. Bieng stoic in the face of it helps me. My suggestion to you is make up your mind one way or the other about what you are going to do (NARIC or not) and be at peace with that. I realize it is scant consolation but fortunately for you there are countless more professional opportunities right there in the Land of the Brave available that non-Westerners banging on these doors can only dream about.

All the Best,
-Cane

[bani]

Even if the title of your Bachelor's is BS in Anthropology, if you can provide the following information to NARIC, I feel it may help:

(1) Proof that your Bachelor degree has courses in Economics
(2) Proof that your admission to the MS in Economics was based on your Bachelor degree (regardless of the discipline) with Economics courses

hi amhilde, i agree with what ashwin says, these are what you need to give to NARIC, also your MS transcript.

also, are you sure they are sticking to the 28 day deadline now for appeals? because they weren't previously (from what i remember of others' posts - noddy's and jhonnyecu's cases i think), it would be good if you didn't have to rush this appeal.

[rella]

I guess I'm one of the people who would rather include all transcripts to make the case clear, no matter what the rules say. There are plenty of people who get their HSMP approved quickly and easily with the minimal evidence and others have been turned down with the same... It's hard to know how each case will be treated and so I feel it's better to give them the information you think will help them to see your case in the best light. And since each country has it's own peculiarities in their education and employment systems, it's better to give as much info as you think will help the caseworker to understand what your qualifications mean.

The univ systems are quite different between the US and UK with plenty of misconceptions on both sides. I've heard over and over again (both here and in the U.S.) that a UK high school education is equivalent to a U.S. bachelors, which is simply completely untrue. My husband and I were looking at the GCSE tests for physics and biology the other day and they are at the same level as U.S. high school courses--lower, in fact, that AP courses.

And the U.S. graduate school system is completely different. I would've assumed that there are enough American applicants that the caseworkers would completely understand how how the system is the U.S. works, but... it may be that they have believe the same mythology that many people seem to believe.

So... I think that a Jhonny approach is required here. It shouldn't be, because IMO, a M.S. from a state school in the U.S. is very clear and is obviously a real Masters. But... you can't take anything for granted at this point... you have to try to get every piece of evidence together to make your point. That is, if others have said, you decide it's worth effort and expense to pursue this.

One thing I would do, is call NARIC first thing Monday morning and speak with them directly. Get your B.S. transcripts together. Circle all economics and economics-related courses. Then... I would find what is required for the PGDip in the UK for economics and show that your undergrad minor either is equivalent or exceeds it. Show what the requirements are for a masters degree in economics in the UK, and show that your masters is equivalent. You can gather info from various UK programs -- I'd only pick the top schools-- and show what is covered in their courses and do a comparison with your course.

Then... get letters. Get one from your UK advisor showing that your masters is equivalent to one from his department in the UK. Think of anything else you can put together as evidence. You can get the UK advisor to fax you this letter, so you can have all this on-hand to send to NARIC and HSMP. Try to leave nothing uncovered. Anything you can think of to make your case, include.

I still don't know what your odds are. It should be accepted, but they make some very odd decisions sometimes. If you read over Jhonny's case, he has a Spanish masters from an excellent school -- so it's even a European masters, but due to terminology, NARIC can't state in the wording that HSMP requires that it's equivalent to a UK masters, even though it is. He also has exactly what is defined as significant achievement in the HSMP guidelines, but they are not evaluating it according to their own rules. He has a good chance and he's made the best case humanly possible. So... all he can do is wait and wait and wait to see if they'll apply the rules fairly in his case. That's all anyone can do.

So... gather your info and put together a top-notch rebuttal to their decision. And do call NARIC and talk it over with them to see exactly what they will need in order to grant you a favorable decision, so you'll know what to give them.

After you get your appeal all ready to go, fax it to them to get it there on time and follow-up with a hard copy. Then... after you're sure the fax arrives, call and go over it with the caseworker, to make sure that they see all your points and have actually read your evidence.

My husband ended up in a very frustrating position with an HSMP approval he couldn't use due to a bunch of rule changes after his application was submitted and got stuck in a long queue. You just do the best you can with the system and keep on trying. It's frustrating, but when dealing with gov't bureaucracies, these things happen. As others have said (and having friends who had to deal with the U.S. immigration system), we have it easy compared to many. The U.S. Immigration System is a nightmare. And as Americans, we probably have the easiest time and the least amount of scrutiny of all non-EU citizens coming into the UK. So, don't take it personally. Just do your best and then let it go until they make the decision.

[amhilde]

Thanks everyone, for your comments and support.

Cane- Yup, I was going to take until the end of today to make a decision on whether to go for the NARIC thing or not and leave it at that. I wanted some time to go through the first knee jerk reactions to this and do quick research to determine my chances and to get some other things in my life taken care of- like laundry and grocery shopping - which have been on hold this week. Regarding bureaucracy, I knew it was going to be a pain, but I didnt think it was going to be this bad! I have quite a few foreign friends here including a bunch from India and Ive heard the horror stories of the student visas and the subsequent work visas, especially since 9/11. Even just getting in to the US has become quite foolish and plenty of foreign students dont even want to try going home for fear that they will never make it back into the country.

Rella- Ive got about 3/4ths of this stuff together as it is, from part of the appeal process and part my own digging around. The HSMP are still holding me to the 28 day requirement- I asked that senior caseworker guy if that was the case given that I would now have to go through NARIC and he said "of course". This gives me a little under two weeks to get it all together, faxed to NARIC, the assessment done and, if the recommendation is favorable, to fax that to the HSMP people. I know poor Jhonny and tried to email him regarding this, but he seems to be out and about this weekend.

[amhilde]

Update-

Ive picked around a little and after trawling through the pages and pages of potential degrees that are on offer in the UK, finally realized that I have something that is akin to an MSc in Business Economics. I checked the Manchester School of Business that offers this and they only require that you have a first degree of a 2:1 or higher in any subject, though some economics would be nice but not required (check. ive got that)- and thats for entrance right on to the course, no PGDip. Their course listings rank close to what I took, though I have a bit more theoretical depth than that course offers ( but not as much as a pure MSc Economics), and very similar courses in Public Policy and Economics of the Firm. My thesis is way WAY off the charts in terms of length and depth though. Looking around at the MSc Business Economics at other universities shows a wide range of quality and what they will accept for entrance and the rigor of each course.

I think I can form a coherent arguement based on this finding and my background. I did take some summer school at the LSE (corporate finance and theoretical finance) but they screwed up on my marksheets and didnt award me a grade for the courses and instead I got some certificate of completion, whcih was annoying since I sat the exams so i WOULD get a grade. This was a number of years ago and I wonder if they even have that stuff on file anymore, though its doubtful.

So, I think Ill call NARIC tomorrow morning and see what they would accept for an arguement that my degree should be comparable. What is really frustrating is to see what these programs expect their graduates to be able to do and to know that Ive been doing the exact same type of work since I finished my degree.

[amhilde]

Further Update-

I called NARIC this morning and they are always so nice there, but I explained the situation and that I had found comparable courses in the UK that dont require any econ background to get right on the course as my degree isnt a pure economic theory one. The nice lady (they must work in country-specific teams there) popped off to double check with her supervisor, but the undergraduate minor and the subsequent masters constitutes a continuation of my studies and that yes, the masters are comparable. I dont have to send in any of my research behind this at all, just the copies of the award certificate and my transcripts. So... Im off to go get a new transcript ( since the other one I have has holes in it) and I wont be positive of anything until I have that letter in my hand, but this seems encouraging.