Form NTL - putting ILR sticker into new passport

[tt]

Even though I may continue to use my old passport (with a ILR stamp in it) with my new passport (which does not have a ILR stamp in it, since IOs can no longer do this on arrival into Britain), to continue to prove my ILR status, whether when travelling or otherwise...
I'm thinking of getting a ILR sticker put into my new passport by HO in Croydon. I believe this is the only way of doing it now. I want to go in person. (It costs 250 GBP this way, I know - a lot more expensive than the old free method on entry !!!).
From what I can see, the Form NTL does not require anything but your personal details. The whole thing is but a formality.
Do you just submit the form and wait with all the others, or is there a fast track at Croydon for this (so no long queues). If I have been away from Britain on and off (but never more than a 2 year gap), does this matter. After all, all my stamps in the passport have me as ILR (no restriction) including the last one.
In other words, is it as simple as "just submit form and get sticker"?

[tt]

A small clarification. When I say (near the end of my question) that the stamps in my new passport including the last entry stamp indicate me as ILR - of course, the point is they don't say I'm ILR, just that by simply me having the entry stamps with a date and no restrictions is a key indicator that I am (in the eyes of the IOs) still ILR. You wouldn't be stamped that way otherwise? Do HO at Croydon do any further assessment?

[tvt]

Why don't you just continue to travel with both passports (new and hold). Paying £250 for a transfer of stamp is a daylight robbery.

[tt]

Yes, I do not understand the incentive to get HO Croydon to put in a new ILR sticker/vignette. Kayalami's earlier helpful comments were that most admin tasks requiring evidence of the UK immigration status (esp. travel) would be simpler. However, I have had no problem in these regards. What can HO say to make me want to go out and get one (for 250 GBP)?

[bhavna]

My understanding is that if you get a new additional booklet for an existing valid passport you do not need to get the ILR stamp transferred from the existing valid passport to the additional booklet.

However if you get a new passport because previous one has expired you have to get the ILR stamp transferred from the old invalid passport to the new valid passport.

Cheers

[tt]

No. The ILR stamp in the old passport works fine. Confirmed by IO and comments on this board (eg Kayalami), and especially by me in practice.

[bhavna]

OK, so if you are so sure about this then why did you post the original question on the board.

Cheers

[tt]

No, I just couldn't understand what the new process at HO was all about - I mean, the need to transfer the ILR sticker/vignette to a new passport. I knew that what I had (in the old passport) was sufficient, but I was considering getting a transfer done anyway. But the effort of having to do anything more than just fill out a form with personal details (and instead, have to, show further proof of residence, interview at Croydon, back-up letters etc) plus the time and the expense of going to Croydon, or sending letters with these sort of extra details, would put me right off. I don't have 5 years of continuous residence to get the citizenship, nor will I. Yet I have sufficient connection and stays in Britain to justify the ILR. It satisfies the IOs on entry, but the fact I have not been working in Britain continuously, nor living in Britain continuously might crop up if I apply for transfer at Croydon. I don't know.
I was hoping to procure further facts about the Form NTL. Maybe its incredibly straightforward. Maybe its worth doing for some reason. I'm trying to be sure. Many thanks!

[Kayalami]

tt,

No offence meant but my understanding of the gist of your question is - ' Does the NTL process involve verification of ILR status by the Home Office checking that the holder has not been outside the UK for more than two years' and further given that 'naturalisation is not an issue for me the Home Office will never know if I was outside the UK for more than 2 years'. If your ILR status is still intact then the NTL form shouldn't be causing you any concerns as it is fairly straightforward.

Attempts at playing the immigration system is a risky business with serious ramifications including imprisonment and a loss of status - it is always best to be honest all the time.

[tt]

Many thanks, Kayalami. Yes, I understand that if I was indeed outside the UK for more than a 2 year period, then nowadays, you really have to get an entry clearance before establishing or re-establishing your ILR on returning to the UK. In the past, it was a matter for the IO on arrival. But this doesn't apply in my case in any case. I'm in and out regularly, and do indeed intend to live permanently in the UK at a later stage. My ILR status is still intact, it seems, so the NTL process should be straightforward. I would agree with you if the facts were otherwise! So I'll "fill out form and pick up sticker" then.

[Joseph]

tt

Seems like a totally unecessary expense and effort. Your first stamp on the new passport was ILE (indefinite leave to enter) right? That's all you will need to show permanent residency (and that's all people needed in the past). Going to Croydon is only for people transfering or changing status while in the UK. You already transfered your status to your new passport when you first entered the UK on your new passport. ILR and ILE mean exactly the same thing. I don't even think they will give you the sticker even if you paid them--they will say it's unecessary.

Joseph

[bhavna]

I am a bit confused on this.

Joseph, Kayalami - If possible could you please comment on these points below. May be i am a bit wrong on this.

My understanding is that if you get a new additional booklet for an existing valid passport you do not need to get the ILR stamp transferred from the existing valid passport to the additional booklet.

However if you get a new passport because previous one has expired you have to get the ILR stamp transferred from the old invalid passport to the new valid passport.

Cheers
Bhavna

[Joseph]

You are not required to get the ILR stamp transferred to retain your permanent residency. You can if you want when you are in the UK, but it will now cost you a fee. If you leave the UK and return on a new passport, you can prove that you still have permanent residency by showing your previous passport with the ILR stamp. If the IO is satisfied that your permanent residency is still valid (i.e. you weren’t outside the UK for 2 years or more) then he will admit you with ILE (indefinite leave to enter). Obviously and intuitively, with ILE you also have ILR (meaning you can remain as long as you went). When you reenter the UK again, the ILE stamp is proof that you have permanent residency (provided you don't lose your status by being absent from the UK for an extended time). The IO will then stamp your passport with a date stamp with no restrictions.

Joseph

[tt]

Joseph. I think it's the case now (since 13 November, 2003) that the IO cannot stamp the (new) passport with an ILE on entry. I know that's what one IO told me on entry, and I believe that the new regulations coming into force on that date virtually emasculated the powers of IOs at entry. Most work is now done in the consulates overseas (entry clearances and so on).
Hence the issue. So my first stamp in my new passport, because my first entry was after 13 November, 2003 - which would have had the ILE stamped in if I had have arrived before 13 Nov - was simply a date stamp with no restrictions, which is of course slightly different to having the ILE added on to it. The IO simply does not have that power anymore.
Now, I presume that having date stamps with no restrictions is pretty much evidence of ILR status, but I don't really know. Hence my need nowadays to carry along the old passport as well, which does have the ILE (or ILR) stamp in it. But the time will come when this becomes awkward (?) ..I don't know.
I would rather not get the new (GBP250) ILR sticker, but there must be a reason it (and the Form NTL) has been introduced. Otherwise everyone would be doing what I'm doing, and no one would ever get a ILR sticker transferred.
By the way, bhavna, I can reconfirm that the old expired passport's ILR (and ILE) stamps are valid (at least, as evidence) for IOs on entry to Britain from my experience.

[tt]

The Qualification to the Nov 13, 2003 changes is that it only applies so far to nationals of Canada, South Africa, Singapore, Malaysia, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and Hong Kong. And I am a national of one of those.

[bhavna]

Hi tt,

can you provide some home office press release link as regards the nov 13 2003 changes being mentioned in the post ?

Cheers

[Kayalami]

bhavna wrote:

I am a bit confused on this.

Joseph, Kayalami - If possible could you please comment on these points below. May be i am a bit wrong on this.

My understanding is that if you get a new additional booklet for an existing valid passport you do not need to get the ILR stamp transferred from the existing valid passport to the additional booklet.

Not too sure what you mean by this but presume you are talking about a passport which is valid but has run out of pages - issuing authorities issue a new booklet with standard passport features including photo and security/ integrity? I am not aware of any countries that do this - most expect you to get a new passport with a new number when the current passport expires or has no more pages. IMHO this is still one document so the transfer issue is moot.

However if you get a new passport because previous one has expired you have to get the ILR stamp transferred from the old invalid passport to the new valid passport.

You do not have to place an ILR stamp in a new passport. Your residency status is independent in this case of the validity or otherwise of your passport. However many people get a new stamp because it makes those situations in practical day life where you must submit evidence of your immigration status with valid/ non expired documents e.g. travel that much easier. You can of course save GBP 155/ 250 as the case may and use two passports where need be. IMHO I believe the scenario where expired ppt has ILR stamp and new does not, becomes more of an issue where the new ppt issuance date progressivley increases away from ILR stamp issuance date.

[tt]

bhavna. The scheme brought in on 13 Nov, 2003, which applies to those countries I mentioned above, and also the US (fancy me forgetting to put that one in), relate mainly to the Residence Permit situation. The UK signed up to the concept of vignettes (stickers) in 1996, and opted into the Regulation in 2001 (Joint Action 97/11/JHA, and Council Regulation (EC) 1030/2002). Press Release by HO was 17 June, 2003. If you read the EC Regulation, it seems that the new ILR sticker is considered to be a Residence Permit.
Now, I have not found anything myself which stops the IO on entry stamping the new passport with a ILE (on top of the date stamp with no restrictions) in those various regulations, but there must be, since I was informed this by a IO (who hopefully is fully informed). And it would make sense from the HO point of view, as it would encourage (force?) new passport holders to get the ILR vignette/sticker (for GBP 250/155) - at least at that time, as Kayalami says, when "the new ppt issuance date progressivley increases away from ILR stamp issuance date".

Maybe the case is not as clearly cut? It would be nice to continue to get the ILE stamped into my new passports - and presumably those other countries not in the list of 10 I mentioned can still have it done. I just don't know.. Hoping someone else might.

[tt]

I'll see what happens next time I enter the UK. I'll ask for a categorical answer from the immig officer as to why the ILE stamp can't be put in new passports anymore - if indeed that is the case. It's possible last time, the immig officer was confused, though I doubt it. I still haven't found anyone who has had the "given leave to enter for an indefinite period (as endorsed in previous passport)" stamp put in on entry since reg changes last Nov 2003.
Wouldn't it be great if that could still be done!

[Epiphany]

TT,
The MOST OBVIOUS REASON why you'd need to USE Form NTL and transfer your ILR status is if your old booklet/passport has run out of visa pages and say if you need to apply for a new visa for say France, then the French Visa officer would REQUIRE to see your ILR stamp on your new Passport. Fullstop. You CANNOT have your ILR on the old passport, show that to the Visa officer and get the visa on the New passport.

I've already run into that problem once before and I had go to the HO early morning the next day to get a new No Time Limit STAMP on my new passport. I had my company foot my £250 fees + all travel costs to croydon as it was all for official travel reasons.
Hope this helps

[bhavna]

this is strange. an additional booklet (issues when visa pages have run out) does not hold valid without the original passport.. so why there is a need to transfer the ILR stamp from this to the additional booklet ?

Cheers
Bhavna

[Epiphany]

I Don't understand what you're going on about a new passport not being valid without the presence of an old one. How did you come to this conclusion?

[bhavna]

Hi,

What i mean is

talking about a passport which is valid but has run out of pages - issuing authorities issue a new booklet with standard passport features having same validity as original one but with a different passport number. Original passport is not cancelled. Indian embassy does that.

[tt]

bhavna. Now I understand what all this additional booklet thing you've been going on about is all about.
Epiphany. Thanks for your comments. That's a good reason. But it would be easier and cheaper just to get the IO on entry to Britain to put in one of those "given leave to enter for an indefinite period (as endorsed in previous passport)" stamps into a new passport. And that gets around your problem (assuming you do this in advance, of course).
The question is, why can't the IO put this stamp in a new passport anymore, or can he. Or does this just apply to the list of 10 countries I mentioned above. Or did I deal with a dazed IO in my particular experience. Or what?

[Kayalami]

bhavna wrote:

Hi,

What i mean is

talking about a passport which is valid but has run out of pages - issuing authorities issue a new booklet with standard passport features having same validity as original one but with a different passport number. Original passport is not cancelled. Indian embassy does that.

IMHO these are two separate documents notwithstanding the second one presumably covering the remaining validity of the first one.

tt wrote:

Epiphany. Thanks for your comments. That's a good reason. But it would be easier and cheaper just to get the IO on entry to Britain to put in one of those "given leave to enter for an indefinite period (as endorsed in previous passport)" stamps into a new passport. And that gets around your problem (assuming you do this in advance, of course).
The question is, why can't the IO put this stamp in a new passport anymore, or can he. Or does this just apply to the list of 10 countries I mentioned above. Or did I deal with a dazed IO in my particular experience. Or what?

No you did not deal with a dazed IO - if he/she did this he/she would be transfering your ILE status to a new passport. Any transfer of ILE/ ILR cannot be done at a Port of Entry because a fee must be paid and the relveant form NTL submitted as per the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act. This practice of not transfering leave is also being applied to all categories of limited leave. My take on this is that whilst there is no 'explicit' charging regime for the transfer of limited leave from an expired to a new passport, the at a POE means free transfers are history. Fork out GBP 250/155 for a transfer/new ppt or carry around two passports is the recuring theme here!!