two questions regarding naturalisation

[rogerroger]

Hello

I have got two questions with regards to applying for naturalisation at the NCS office

my indian passport is going to expire in the last week of december, when i go to the NCS, is it ok for me to present an expired passport containing the visas

how do the authorities know that i was in the UK exactly 5 years back, i had made a trip to the middle east almost 5 years back, i am trying to be careful about it, the stamps are in arabic and that too on an old passport, does that need to be taken to the NCS to show them. would i need to get a translation of the arabic stamps, are the NCS guys, the guys who check the 5 year rule

[lemess]

Firstly you are meant to present passports covering the last 5 years so yes you will have send these.

Re: arabic translation you're taking a chance the caseworker will not get it translated ( or indeed speak arabic !). Presumably there will also be entry stamps back into the UK when you returned here after those middle eastern trips and they could raise suspicions if the caseworker is able to put 2 and 2 together.

Bottom line - it is a risk but probably a minimal one. The IND guidance to caseworkers on their site indicates that they should give the benefit of doubt to the applicant on residence issues where it is not possible to precisely work out whether they were in the country 5 years ago or not. Note that while this is the case, there is no discretion possible in this. If the caseworker can establish that you were absent on the date 5 years before your application is received, they MUST reject the application.

And no - I don't think the NCS guys check this - at least they didn't in my case. It's not always easy to establish anyway especially if your passport is covered in stamps.

Re: expired passport I am not sure how important it is to show a current, valid passport but in that case I would definitely make sure you present the original home office letter granting you ILR. That pretty much establishes that you have indefinite leave to remain regardless of any stamps on passports etc.

[John]

Roger, as well as the stamps in passports there are also the entries on the AN(NEW) form for IND to look at! Clearly the best advice is that the application form must be completed accurately and truthfully.

Also whilst you mention Arabic stamps, you were probably stamped back into the UK when you got back? That stamp exists not just in your passport but also in the IND computer system.

This five year rule (three years for the spouse of a British Citizen) is absolute (except for those abroad on Crown Service). If the test is failed the application will get rejected .... or best case, you might be offered the chance to re-sign and re-date the application form.

So absolutely essential that you establish your dates outside the UK, especially near to the start of your qualifying period.

[rogerroger]

i thought with the NCS service, you just need to show the passports and they give you back your passport same day, is that not true

with reference to the arabic translation, i was in the middle east for only 14 days, i dont mind if it gets translated, as long as i am not asked to prove that it truly was a 14 day stay. the months on the entry/exit stamps for the middle eastern country are in arabic,as long as they get it translated on hteir own i am happy.
i thought you are stamped only on entry into the UK not on exit

[John]

Roger, that is right, they hand you back passports that day .... but will photocopy the relevant pages and send those off to Liverpool with the application form. So IND in Liverpool will have the ability to do their own research on the matter if they really feel the need.

So, as said before, do ensure that Q3.2 on the form AN(NEW) .... dates of departure from and return to the UK ...... is completed accurately to the best of your knowledge and belief.

[lemess]

worst case scenario in your case seems to be that the caseworker could reconsider your application after 14 days provided you haven't knowingly lied on your form. I think they appreciate that it can be hard to be absolutely cetain about dates from 5 years ago and the applicant himself also uses the passport to work these out.
The IND caseworker guidance http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en ... ex_b.html? does indicate scope for benefit of doubt.

According to instructions to caseworkers
NB. Passports will not necessarily be stamped to show embarkation from the United Kingdom. In these and other circumstances (e.g. involving lost or stolen passports), applicants should be given the benefit of any doubt where claimed absences cannot be otherwise verified but are within the limits we would normally allow and there are no grounds to doubt the accuracy of the claim.

[rogerroger]

thanks for the replies and especially the link and note
i will complete section 3.2 to the best of my knowledge

i suppose the case worker is the person present at the home office not the NCS?

[lemess]

yes - caseworkers are the people who actually look at your application and make decisions in liverpool. The people at NCS simply ensure that your application is complete and you are not missing anything obvious - they don't do much digging into the details of your application.

[rogerroger]

i have collated the information regarding trips out of the UK to the best of my knowledge.

there are a couple of trips in which i might be out by a week

e.g. i am not sure if i had done a trip between the dates 7th of june 2002-8 june 2002 or f the trip was 14th of june 2002 - 15 june 2002, there is no entry on my passport

i guess if i stick any one of the two, it should be ok

also in some stances i am not sure if i left entered on the 21st or the 22nd, if the intention is to ensure i have not been out of the e UK for not more than 90 days in the last one year and not more than 450 days in the 5 years, then if i just put down the date which will overstate my stay outside the UK that should be ok, correct?

also if a stay is from say the 1st of May 2005-5 May 2005, is that a 5 day stay or a a 4 day stay, i have put that down as a 5 day stay

[John]

if a stay is from say the 1st of May 2005-5 May 2005, is that a 5 day stay or a a 4 day stay, i have put that down as a 5 day stay

Neither! If your departure was on the 1st and you returned on the 5th, that is 3 days. You don't count either the date of departure nor the date of return .... you only count the number of days that you were out of the UK for every one of its 24 hours .... in this example, the 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

If you are genuinely not sure, for example, whether you left on the 21st or 22nd, I would put the 21st ... especially if you are not even close to having a "day count" problem.

[rogerroger]

thanks for the reply

i guess the case worker could easily see that i am not trying to cheat the system, and any errors would be honest ones.

would not departing on te 21st and arriving back on the 22nd constitute a 24 hour or one day absence from the uk

and likewise departing on the 20th and arriving back on the 25th, is 120 hours constituting 5 days?

what about if i am not sure of the date of a trip and i am out by a week but put down the duration of the trip correctly, my form wont be returned, correct?

[John]

Roger, if you look at the Guide AN(NEW) and in particular 3.2 you will see it reads :-

3.2 Fill in this table showing the periods you have been away from the United Kingdom during the last 5 years (3 years if you are married to a British citizen). Insert the number of days you were away from the United Kingdom in the last column ignoring the day you left and the day you arrived back in the United Kingdom. If there is not enough room for all your absences then continue on page 14. Add up the total and write it in the space indicated.

(my emphasis)

So using your example ... out on 21st and back on 22nd ... I think it is clear that the day count is ..... 0 ! Nevertheless I think that entry should still be made in the table at 3.2 on the form AN(NEW).

Genuinely not sure of the dates? I don't see any harm in using the "white space" on page 14 of the form AN(NEW) to say that you think the dates were (as entered) but they might be (other dates), and the actual answer would be given by translating the Arabic stamps.

Anyone you know speak Arabic?

[rogerroger]

thanks for the reply, i will fill it in according to the instructions

no, it is not the arabic dates, i worked them out using the good old web.

it is these day trips i made to france

i am not sure if i visited france 7-8 July 2002 or was it the week following it 14-15 July 2002.

according to the instructions, these trips would have an absence of 0 day.
but since the dates can be out of sync by a week, i guess i can mention it on the white sheet that i am not sure if i did this trip on the 7-8 July 2002 or the following week.

the trip was by bus and i am not sure if i got entered in the system in the first place, i think we were just waved in