sovtek wrote:walrusgumble wrote:
You confuse "looking after EU citizens first" with classifying people by where they come from.
It is a dearly beloved sytem (and it doesn't help EU citizens in any way) especially when you see how the facts on the ground manifest themselves such as treating non-eu spouses differently than other spouses, the outright hostility different nationalities get at immigration, the way immigrants are discriminated against when look for a job (thats ignoring the descriminatory work permit system).
You also seem to fail to grasp the point I was making how attitudes can change when people rise up against the system that oppresses them...so my comparison is quite apt.
If you are not capable of directly referring to questions that have being put to you please do not respond.
I'll respond to anything I please within the forum rules (which seem to be pretty sparse).
On the other hand I could say unless you are able to comprehend the point I'm making not to respond, but again I leave that to the moderators to police.
You give the same guff (or at least you did) in other sites like politics.ie and boards.ie. It did not last long.
:rolleyes:
By your analogy, Austrialia and US are also a dearly beloved system. Geee SOuth Africa have being great pals to the immigrants like Zimbabweans and Mosambiques in the past decade
Gee so there are other dearly beloved systems out there. Thanks for telling me. So lets just all go home and watch Eurovision and forget about it cause Ireland is now excused.
I can assure you their is no confusion on my part. THe EU laws are for the benefit of EU citizens first and non nationals second
I guess that's why you don't seem to understand what I am saying, so I'll spell it out. That benefits neither.
1. eu benefits neither? really? so the eu treaty and directive prevents an eu citizen from living in another eu country, provided that they are economicially viable or self sufficient? Or that the EU prevents family members and dependants from joining that eu citizen in another country provided the eu citizen complies with the laws?
so you are also sayng that where a country breaches the rights of the eu citizen and his or her family, they have no remedies in the national courts or even in the ECJ?
Last time I checked an Italian can't be discriminated against on basis of nationality in Ireland under EU law (and domestic equality laws)
and if he is, he has recourse to the courts with the prepetrator getting heavily fined (something tells me you are going to come out with some bs about not being allowed to vote in the dail - don't embarrass yourself, please) Metock case has clearly helped the eu and non eu family.
Eu citizens are entilted to the same services etc as a domestic, many would be aware of our generious child benefit to children who are not even living in ireland with the eu worker.
they will also enjoy the same work conditions and rights, the right not to be charged international fees in university of another country, enjoy recognition of their education qualification and work skills (in most areas) whilst in another country - thats not bad going for a continent of over 30 different countries (i am including the countries not in the EU but are in the EEA) with over 500 million. And you are saying the union does that benefit the eu citizen and their family?
What use is the union to eu citizens if they can't secure jobs and opportunites to their own people? Wasn't Obama keen on getting the giant US multi corporations back in US soild and provide work for Americans ? fair enough, it must drive Americans bananas seeing huge amercian companies profit and cream off other countries whilst doing nought for americans - I must say, the host country was very very very happy for these companies to come to their shores
the dearly beloved or extreme right on the other hand, as you know would complain that the EU are too liberal in allowing in non eu citizens (with no personal or family connections to the union. You can't win can you.
Have you being prevented from living here by the way? (I assume your family member is an EU citizen
2. Why should a non eu citizen, who has no rights under EU law be allowed, over and above basic human rights of respect and dignity, be able to rely on EU law? After all, this particular thread deals with work permit holders, who clearly do not have residency under EU law, if they did, they would not need to rely upon a permit.
If on the other hand, what you are really saying is, the EU or any country/contintent in the world should be free and open to all comers, then say it and not hide behind false rhethoric of "Oppression", "beloved" and the other heavy handed dishonest guff you come out with. And when you are at it, take a look at what other countries are doing or have done. Its not away of making excuses for Ireland's methods by the way, it's simply saying, no other country stands up to the unrealistic view that you have.
3. Where work permit holders told that they would always be needed? Where they not informed of the consequences of losing their permits for whatever lawful reason? Were they promised that they would be given permanent residency in the country they reside in? Didn't they know the risks? How can you give a person a new or renewed permit when the economic situation does not require a demand for such people? Wouldn't they be better off going elsewhere to work if they had not, by then obtained citizenship?
Sorry if that sounds extremely harsh. Its not meant to be. I am aware that many permit holders, unfortunately got treated like dirt. But now, for the others, the country does not owe them anything. Sure they paid their taxes, like any other lawful employee is expected to do, the world over, but it must have been a better option for them in the first place to come here make some money than back in their home countries? THey did not come for the weather you know.
4. Regarding the other sites, ye, roll your eyes, at least i am honest and accurate about my comment, shame the same can't be said for you.
5. Returning to the Ireland and excuse part, I am simply responding to false preceptions that you have given as if Ireland is one of few countries that are bold and dislike immigrants. My example is, over the past 15 years, Irish Immigration policy has been far far far more relaxed than many other countries like Britian, US and Australia (i refer to domestic laws in dealing with non eu citizens who are not related to eu citizens) It was relaxed about the requirements of financial self sufficency and it opened a very very wide avenue of jobs available for employment with very very little restrictions as to getting the permit, compared to other countries. (The problem was of course, it was not supervised or regulated to prevent abuse by employers. Hopefully when the next bach of immigrants return to ireland in the next couple of decades, the system will have learned from past mistakes)
anyway, the best of luck on what you are doing. I hope you succeed. But seriously, lay off the rhethoric, particularly the ill founded and misplaced stuff. You would only lend up talking to yourself and the wall. Please don't take this as criticism but a helpful hand. You raise valid points in a long and long winded way, you are right that someone should stand up for the immigrant, but playing the race card, which is not relevant aint the way to go. this is serious bred and butter issues, so get rid of the nonsecial people power, civil rights lark. this is not a game. carrying on the way you have done now, you would be a diservice to the people that you are trying to help.
