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Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, CR001, zimba, meself2, Administrator
Interestingly enough, I got given a 5 year stamp 4 based on marriage to an Irish national. The guard was reading something on his pin board to do with how spouses of Irish nationals are to be dealt with, and mumbling something about the Metock case and bringing Irish spouses into line with that. Could just be that I was lucky, and had been here on a green card prior to that. He'd also met my now husband a few times too!assbc wrote:Why would non-EU Spouse of EU has free movement within EU countries and non-EU Spouse of Irish has not?
Why would non-EU Spouse of EU be given 5 yrs residency and non-EU Spouse of Irish has only 1 yr or less.?
Why would non-EU Spouse of EU has indefinite stay after 5 yrs of marriage and non-EU Spouse of Irish has not?
Why would EU treaty be for non-EU Spouse of EU and not for non-EU spouse of Irish?
I think the Irish government is so unfair to spouse of Irish.
I pray God should touch the heart of Irish Government so they can pass a bill that would favor Non-EU Spouse of and Irish.
some form of unity should occur. You have no idea, that some genuine relationships have been refused whilst some questionable short term relationships (even where both have deportation orders) have got it. Its unfair on the genuines.esharknz wrote:Interestingly enough, I got given a 5 year stamp 4 based on marriage to an Irish national. The guard was reading something on his pin board to do with how spouses of Irish nationals are to be dealt with, and mumbling something about the Metock case and bringing Irish spouses into line with that. Could just be that I was lucky, and had been here on a green card prior to that. He'd also met my now husband a few times too!assbc wrote:Why would non-EU Spouse of EU has free movement within EU countries and non-EU Spouse of Irish has not?
Why would non-EU Spouse of EU be given 5 yrs residency and non-EU Spouse of Irish has only 1 yr or less.?
Why would non-EU Spouse of EU has indefinite stay after 5 yrs of marriage and non-EU Spouse of Irish has not?
Why would EU treaty be for non-EU Spouse of EU and not for non-EU spouse of Irish?
I think the Irish government is so unfair to spouse of Irish.
I pray God should touch the heart of Irish Government so they can pass a bill that would favor Non-EU Spouse of and Irish.
I fully agree, this board and blogs can help with articulating the problemswalrusgumble wrote: some form of unity should occur. You have no idea, that some genuine relationships have been refused whilst some questionable short term relationships (even where both have deportation orders) have got it. Its unfair on the genuines.
esharknz wrote:Interestingly enough, I got given a 5 year stamp 4 based on marriage to an Irish national. The guard was reading something on his pin board to do with how spouses of Irish nationals are to be dealt with, and mumbling something about the Metock case and bringing Irish spouses into line with that. Could just be that I was lucky, and had been here on a green card prior to that. He'd also met my now husband a few times too!assbc wrote:Why would non-EU Spouse of EU has free movement within EU countries and non-EU Spouse of Irish has not?
Why would non-EU Spouse of EU be given 5 yrs residency and non-EU Spouse of Irish has only 1 yr or less.?
Why would non-EU Spouse of EU has indefinite stay after 5 yrs of marriage and non-EU Spouse of Irish has not?
Why would EU treaty be for non-EU Spouse of EU and not for non-EU spouse of Irish?
I think the Irish government is so unfair to spouse of Irish.
I pray God should touch the heart of Irish Government so they can pass a bill that would favor Non-EU Spouse of and Irish.
Lost Soul wrote:They give you a one year stamp if you have no previous immigration record. That is if you have just arrived in Ireland and got married.
Its at the discretion of the Guard. no harm to ask for 5-year.ojoge wrote:Lost Soul wrote:They give you a one year stamp if you have no previous immigration record. That is if you have just arrived in Ireland and got married.
Let say you got 1 year, how many years will you be given after the expiry of 1year as an Irish spouse?
IQU wrote:non eu spouse of irish can apply for irish citizenship after 3 year .but not eu spouse of eu cannt apply after 3 year.non eu spouse of irish can get stamp 4 in inis office straight away .but non eu spouse of eu have to wait more than 6 months during that period if eu spouse lost the job.applications is turn down straight away.during this period non eu spouse cant work in ireland because he will only get stamp3 .
As the EU spouse is expected not to be an unreasonable burden to the state and economically viable or insured, surely it is correct to expect a similar enough situation for irish - non eu citizen relationship. As for bringing other family members into Ireland, are you taking the piss? WHo would you need to bring in? Your a bloody adult, you did alright without your mammy and daddy before hand. can you even guarantee that they will not even claim a pension or health requirements? If I was living in the US I could not be expected to bring over my parents or brothers. The reality of the EU right is rather limited in practice anyway, it won't apply to everyone unless you got some money in the pocket
Its a matter of Irish law and not EU law. A matter which the Irish and only the Irish can seek to change, so far, it seems that its not a priority, though it should be determined by statue law and not to the discretion of the minister. If the Irish citizen actually bothers to travel outside the 26 counties, then they can fall within EU law freemovement rules. It does take that much effort to move up north of the M1 for a few months if they are that bothered.
fatty patty wrote:As the EU spouse is expected not to be an unreasonable burden to the
state and economically viable or insured, surely it is correct to expect a similar enough situation for irish - non eu citizen relationship. As for bringing other family members into Ireland, are you taking the piss? WHo would you need to bring in? Your a bloody adult, you did alright without your mammy and daddy before hand. can you even guarantee that they will not even claim a pension or health requirements? If I was living in the US I could not be expected to bring over my parents or brothers. The reality of the EU right is rather limited in practice anyway, it won't apply to everyone unless you got some money in the pocket
Its a matter of Irish law and not EU law. A matter which the Irish and only the Irish can seek to change, so far, it seems that its not a priority, though it should be determined by statue law and not to the discretion of the minister. If the Irish citizen actually bothers to travel outside the
counties, then they can fall within EU law freemovement rules. It does take that much effort to move up north of the M1 for a few months if they are that bothered.
you probably dont seem the need to bring your parents over if they are dependent on you but if others feels the need then they have the right to do so under EU law and should have the right to do so. Regarding claiming pensions and stuff thats part and parcel of the system. You also mentioned US ... more than half of my relative reside in US (either nationals/green card holders/married to US) and i see how the other family members get green card one after the other over there.
As far as Irish and Irish to decide is concerned...Ireland is part of the EU (thats news to me), if they enjoy any law in EU directive they gotta give back to others too which means free movement of family members non eu/eu shite this that and the other...you either in EU or out of it....its the as simple as that.
walrusgumble wrote:fatty patty wrote:As the EU spouse is expected not to be an unreasonable burden to the
state and economically viable or insured, surely it is correct to expect a similar enough situation for irish - non eu citizen relationship. As for bringing other family members into Ireland, are you taking the piss? WHo would you need to bring in? Your a bloody adult, you did alright without your mammy and daddy before hand. can you even guarantee that they will not even claim a pension or health requirements? If I was living in the US I could not be expected to bring over my parents or brothers. The reality of the EU right is rather limited in practice anyway, it won't apply to everyone unless you got some money in the pocket
Its a matter of Irish law and not EU law. A matter which the Irish and only the Irish can seek to change, so far, it seems that its not a priority, though it should be determined by statue law and not to the discretion of the minister. If the Irish citizen actually bothers to travel outside the
counties, then they can fall within EU law freemovement rules. It does take that much effort to move up north of the M1 for a few months if they are that bothered.
you probably dont seem the need to bring your parents over if they are dependent on you but if others feels the need then they have the right to do so under EU law and should have the right to do so. Regarding claiming pensions and stuff thats part and parcel of the system. You also mentioned US ... more than half of my relative reside in US (either nationals/green card holders/married to US) and i see how the other family members get green card one after the other over there.
As far as Irish and Irish to decide is concerned...Ireland is part of the EU (thats news to me), if they enjoy any law in EU directive they gotta give back to others too which means free movement of family members non eu/eu shite this that and the other...you either in EU or out of it....its the as simple as that.
Are we referring to Irish law or EU law here? If so, which I was referring to (ie Irish law, dealing with Irish people who have yet to exercise their eu rights to free movement) then EU law is irrelevent.(i take it you have read the directive, rules on freedom of movement and rights of europe to dictate when they have no jurisdiction not too,)
If families are dependent, for most cases, they are send money home to them.
As for the States, you course you have family members in the states if they actually married a us citizen. you says that an non eu person would not be allowed to stay here if they marry an irish person? did they get green cards on their own basis or on the basis of their aunt, uncle etc? could you get one on the basis that your family are over there?
As for your last comment, maybe you should actaually look at when EU law actually is relevant in matters dealing soley with Irish law or any other eu country. Article 29 of the constitution is a start then, then have look at the treaties, you actually read when the directive 2004 actually kicks in along with Treaty provisions regarding freedom of movement. eu law does not, provided it does not infringe on eu matters, prevent states dealing with non eu nationals (who have no connection or relation with other eu nationals living in a host state) you may argue that other countries treat their citizens and other eu citizens residing in their country the same, but until the minister decides otherwise, the it does not apply here. eu citizens have more rights than irish citizens to family reunification. If your irish feel free to campaign to dail eireann about changing the rules.
It's not a matter of whether your in or out of europe! with regard to irish citizens not exercising the eu rights, is not a matter of eu law
how will it bite john o'donoughe & co ? he was the minister when there was little growth in immigration bar the refugees, sadly, I think there will be some Irish people who will think this lot did not do enough on this issue. Why is it getting personal? I have asked one to two questions about shouldn't the spouses consider a number of matters if they taught they would not get status, on another thread, interstingly (and not surprisingly), no one answeredacme4242 wrote:I presume you are referring to the European Union.
Well Ireland is one of the few within the EU who discriminate
against their own citizens.
Of course the Dept know what they are doing is wrong, but their
business is not justice and equality, that title is only lip-service.
They do however have a special exemption for Irish Public servants.
Its all so wrong, it will bite the group responsible someday for their
wrongdoing. messrs O'Donoghue, McDowell and Dermot Ahern.
All small-town bad minded solicitors.
[url=http://www.gov.ie/committees-00/c-justice/001108/default.htm]John O'Donoghue[/url] wrote: The termination of the post-nuptial citizenship scheme will not adversely affect the situation of non-national spouses in terms, for example, of their joining their Irish spouses in this State. There are well established immigration procedures which secure the admission of non-national spouses of Irish nationals
The present immigration arrangements recognise the special position of non-national spouses of Irish citizens. Such spouses, regardless of their nationality, There are no immigration limitations operating to inhibit non-national spouses seeking to come to the State.
In the immigration and residence Bill which is being drafted in the Department at present to replace the entirely outdated and inadvisedly named Aliens Act and its associated orders with a modern and sensible code of immigration law, the immigration status of non-national spouses of Irish citizens will be reaffirmed.
and a youtube clip showing his arrogance[url=http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0536/D.0536.200105220014.html]John O'Donoghue[/url] wrote: There is no good reason I, as an individual politician, would seek to put barriers in the way of genuine spouses of Irish citizens gaining citizenship. To do so would be an act of lunacy. I am trying to close off the potential for abuse which has been recognised by the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Foreign Affairs over a number of years. I am not trying to put obstacles in anyone’s way. The termination of the post-nuptial citizenship scheme will not adversely affect the position of non-national spouses in terms of their joining their spouses in the State, nor will it adversely affect their right to work.
You seem to have a difficulty telling the difference between being granted citizenship automatically and being granted residency, and an expectation that you must at least live here with wife before applying. Its not a huge requirement or obstacle is it? THere was nothing in that statement state stated that he was going to stop residencyacme4242 wrote:O'Donoghue, his lies and his high living expenses are his legacy
[url=http://www.gov.ie/committees-00/c-justice/001108/default.htm]John O'Donoghue[/url] wrote: The termination of the post-nuptial citizenship scheme will not adversely affect the situation of non-national spouses in terms, for example, of their joining their Irish spouses in this State. There are well established immigration procedures which secure the admission of non-national spouses of Irish nationals
The present immigration arrangements recognise the special position of non-national spouses of Irish citizens. Such spouses, regardless of their nationality, There are no immigration limitations operating to inhibit non-national spouses seeking to come to the State.
In the immigration and residence Bill which is being drafted in the Department at present to replace the entirely outdated and inadvisedly named Aliens Act and its associated orders with a modern and sensible code of immigration law, the immigration status of non-national spouses of Irish citizens will be reaffirmed.and a youtube clip showing his arrogance[url=http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0536/D.0536.200105220014.html]John O'Donoghue[/url] wrote: There is no good reason I, as an individual politician, would seek to put barriers in the way of genuine spouses of Irish citizens gaining citizenship. To do so would be an act of lunacy. I am trying to close off the potential for abuse which has been recognised by the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Foreign Affairs over a number of years. I am not trying to put obstacles in anyone’s way. The termination of the post-nuptial citizenship scheme will not adversely affect the position of non-national spouses in terms of their joining their spouses in the State, nor will it adversely affect their right to work.
where are you from? i am sure that your country completely never fails to discriminate their own peopleacme4242 wrote:I presume you are referring to the European Union.
Well Ireland is one of the few within the EU who discriminate
against their own citizens.
Of course the Dept know what they are doing is wrong, but their
business is not justice and equality, that title is only lip-service.
They do however have a special exemption for Irish Public servants.
Its all so wrong, it will bite the group responsible someday for their
wrongdoing. messrs O'Donoghue, McDowell and Dermot Ahern.
All small-town bad minded solicitors.
champions of justice? what country can boast that? irish people ain't whinging about immigration rights that is for sure, more to do with economic and social divisions and failure to bridge the gap during the good days. so leave that lark your hoping about out to justify your argument have a look how other countries actually treat non nationals. france with a simple piece of clothing? or italians treating asylum seekers like complete dirt and actually refusing them entry (sorry for all the people of the muslim faith, by referring to "simple", in this context it is not intended to offend)acme4242 wrote:I fully agree, this board and blogs can help with articulating the problemswalrusgumble wrote: some form of unity should occur. You have no idea, that some genuine relationships have been refused whilst some questionable short term relationships (even where both have deportation orders) have got it. Its unfair on the genuines.
and spreading information on rights. But the violations and unfairness
will continue to EU families and Irish families.
And in the world of Irish politics I don't see any champions for justice.
...so I just don't know...
walrusgumble wrote:You seem to have a difficulty telling the difference between being granted citizenship automatically and being granted residency, and an expectation that you must at least live here with wife before applying. Its not a huge requirement or obstacle is it? THere was nothing in that statement state stated that he was going to stop residencyacme4242 wrote:O'Donoghue, his lies and his high living expenses are his legacy
[url=http://www.gov.ie/committees-00/c-justice/001108/default.htm]John O'Donoghue[/url] wrote: The termination of the post-nuptial citizenship scheme will not adversely affect the situation of non-national spouses in terms, for example, of their joining their Irish spouses in this State. There are well established immigration procedures which secure the admission of non-national spouses of Irish nationals
The present immigration arrangements recognise the special position of non-national spouses of Irish citizens. Such spouses, regardless of their nationality, There are no immigration limitations operating to inhibit non-national spouses seeking to come to the State.
In the immigration and residence Bill which is being drafted in the Department at present to replace the entirely outdated and inadvisedly named Aliens Act and its associated orders with a modern and sensible code of immigration law, the immigration status of non-national spouses of Irish citizens will be reaffirmed.and a youtube clip showing his arrogance[url=http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0536/D.0536.200105220014.html]John O'Donoghue[/url] wrote: There is no good reason I, as an individual politician, would seek to put barriers in the way of genuine spouses of Irish citizens gaining citizenship. To do so would be an act of lunacy. I am trying to close off the potential for abuse which has been recognised by the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Foreign Affairs over a number of years. I am not trying to put obstacles in anyone’s way. The termination of the post-nuptial citizenship scheme will not adversely affect the position of non-national spouses in terms of their joining their spouses in the State, nor will it adversely affect their right to work.
Secondly, this state was said in or around 2000 - 2001, a time when the baby "boom" IBC is nearing its last legs. The new "student" industry (with mickey mouse courses, some of the owners whom have been shut down for dodgy business) was also starting to merge. Looking over to what was happening in the UK gave them plenty to be concerned with. Also, look at what happened under McDowell's time as Minister, in 2003, when there was a blatant abuse of immigration systems via a handy loophole in the ECJ case of Chen 2004, a matter which Ireland got a bollocking from other EU heads of State as we were seen as the back door to europe, whilst the others had progressively addressed the inward control of 3rd Nationals.
I must commend how you take that report out of context as well. The change of the laws were also influence by fact that numbers were living Ireland upon getting the citizenship and then moving over to eg UK, barely to be seen again, or heard of. Hardly swearing to remain here in good faith as required by the legislation now is it?
Its accpeted, O'Donohue was was not the best Minister and made a complete hammms of the immigration side of things, particularily the refugee act 1996 as amended by 1999. But to refer to the lies and high expenses is pretty f*cking retarded. They were all on the make, he was not the only one, it did not effect his ability to act as a minister dealing with THIS issue.
As for the youtube clip, he is the Ceann Comharile, it was disgraceful behaviour from the opposition in particular Enda Kenny, a man who can't even demand the full and absolute respect from his own party , the only time that prick ever look like he had balls (tiny ones albeit). Lawyers in a court room would not dare to treat a judge with such distain. Problem is, O'Donoghue in that clip, reacted like his nick name, and did so badly. I would not be surprised that the opposition had ambushed him, knowing his temper and knowing the publicity would be on him as new ceann comhairle.
Other than that, he was a chancer. Lies, though? I don't see him before the dail committees? You know something we don't know about?
Funny enough it does, but no sorry , I am not from Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael. However, I do have an undying hatered for Fine Gael - though this is not the basis of my responsefatty patty wrote:walrusgumble wrote:You seem to have a difficulty telling the difference between being granted citizenship automatically and being granted residency, and an expectation that you must at least live here with wife before applying. Its not a huge requirement or obstacle is it? THere was nothing in that statement state stated that he was going to stop residencyacme4242 wrote:O'Donoghue, his lies and his high living expenses are his legacy
[url=http://www.gov.ie/committees-00/c-justice/001108/default.htm]John O'Donoghue[/url] wrote: The termination of the post-nuptial citizenship scheme will not adversely affect the situation of non-national spouses in terms, for example, of their joining their Irish spouses in this State. There are well established immigration procedures which secure the admission of non-national spouses of Irish nationals
The present immigration arrangements recognise the special position of non-national spouses of Irish citizens. Such spouses, regardless of their nationality, There are no immigration limitations operating to inhibit non-national spouses seeking to come to the State.
In the immigration and residence Bill which is being drafted in the Department at present to replace the entirely outdated and inadvisedly named Aliens Act and its associated orders with a modern and sensible code of immigration law, the immigration status of non-national spouses of Irish citizens will be reaffirmed.and a youtube clip showing his arrogance[url=http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0536/D.0536.200105220014.html]John O'Donoghue[/url] wrote: There is no good reason I, as an individual politician, would seek to put barriers in the way of genuine spouses of Irish citizens gaining citizenship. To do so would be an act of lunacy. I am trying to close off the potential for abuse which has been recognised by the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Foreign Affairs over a number of years. I am not trying to put obstacles in anyone’s way. The termination of the post-nuptial citizenship scheme will not adversely affect the position of non-national spouses in terms of their joining their spouses in the State, nor will it adversely affect their right to work.
Secondly, this state was said in or around 2000 - 2001, a time when the baby "boom" IBC is nearing its last legs. The new "student" industry (with mickey mouse courses, some of the owners whom have been shut down for dodgy business) was also starting to merge. Looking over to what was happening in the UK gave them plenty to be concerned with. Also, look at what happened under McDowell's time as Minister, in 2003, when there was a blatant abuse of immigration systems via a handy loophole in the ECJ case of Chen 2004, a matter which Ireland got a bollocking from other EU heads of State as we were seen as the back door to europe, whilst the others had progressively addressed the inward control of 3rd Nationals.
I must commend how you take that report out of context as well. The change of the laws were also influence by fact that numbers were living Ireland upon getting the citizenship and then moving over to eg UK, barely to be seen again, or heard of. Hardly swearing to remain here in good faith as required by the legislation now is it?
Its accpeted, O'Donohue was was not the best Minister and made a complete hammms of the immigration side of things, particularily the refugee act 1996 as amended by 1999. But to refer to the lies and high expenses is pretty f*cking retarded. They were all on the make, he was not the only one, it did not effect his ability to act as a minister dealing with THIS issue.
As for the youtube clip, he is the Ceann Comharile, it was disgraceful behaviour from the opposition in particular Enda Kenny, a man who can't even demand the full and absolute respect from his own party , the only time that prick ever look like he had balls (tiny ones albeit). Lawyers in a court room would not dare to treat a judge with such distain. Problem is, O'Donoghue in that clip, reacted like his nick name, and did so badly. I would not be surprised that the opposition had ambushed him, knowing his temper and knowing the publicity would be on him as new ceann comhairle.
Other than that, he was a chancer. Lies, though? I don't see him before the dail committees? You know something we don't know about?
looks like you are on finna fail payroll man...this party full of crony muppets who reminds me of african/south asian corrupt politicians but difference is they are white and speaking english. atleast fine gael deputies has the balls to stand up to its leader if they think he is no good and lost confidence. what did finna fail do when Bertie screwing about with his tribunals and other corruption allegation? stayed silent. Bertie only resigned due to media/public pressure.
spouse of irish citizen should be entitled to irish citizenship after certain years full stop. Its not fair to see irish spouse and kids on one line and getting swished through while non irish spouse waiting till the airport closes to get out....try it it aint nice.
one thing is for sure....irish immigration system or infact really any public service institution aint proactive...they are reactive. act upon when they see others are acting upon and they copy UK system which is not a bad system but difference is here they copy it pretty badly.