Moving to Spain using Council Directive 2003/109/EC?

[AsturiasOrBust]

Hi,

Does anyone have any experience with this (http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/ ... 034_en.htm)? I'm a US citizen who has been living in the Netherlands for the last 10 years and I'm planning on moving to Spain to live with my Spanish girlfriend. Theoretically, according to this directive, someone with an EU long-term resident permit should be able to move to and work in another EU country (excluding UK, Ireland and Denmark). In practice, however, it seems this may not be quite so straight forward as each country seems to handle it differently. To this point, I haven't found much information about how Spain is implementing this ruling.

From what I can tell, I need to either find a job in Spain or set up myself as autonomo in order to take advantage of this directive. There is some information in the document entitled "Movilidad de los extranjeros extracomunitarios en la Unión Europea (El Estatuto de Residentes de Larga Duración - CE)" (http://extranjeros.mtin.es/es/Informaci ... index.html) but I would greatly appreciate any other information anyone might have on how to best go about doing this or if anyone has actually done this.

Many thanks in advance!

[tair]

Hello.

I am pretty much in the same situation, except my permanent residence permit is from Finland. Were you able to find any useful information regarding this issue?

Thanks.

[Rolfus]

Are you both sure you have actually got EU long term residence permits?
See: 'Directive 2003/109/EC Long Term Residents' on this forum.

[tair]

I m pretty sure I have permanent residence permit.

[Rolfus]

So you may not have the EU long term resident permit.

[mastermind]

To clarify what Rolfus means, many countries also issue their own "national" permanent residence permits, which are different from the "Long Term Residence Permit" (LTRP) enacted by the aforementioned EU directive. They are not covered by the directive and usually can not be used to move to another EU country.
In this post Obie pointed out that even the "permanent residence" acquired by family members of EU nationals is worse in this regard than LTRP. (apparently it can't be used to move to another EU country after divorce/separation etc., which is kind of odd though)

[tair]

To clarify what Rolfus means, many countries also issue their own "national" permanent residence permits, which are different from the "Long Term Residence Permit" (LTRP) enacted by the aforementioned EU directive. They are not covered by the directive and usually can not be used to move to another EU country.
In this post Obie pointed out that even the "permanent residence" acquired by family members of EU nationals is worse in this regard than LTRP. (apparently it can't be used to move to another EU country after divorce/separation etc., which is kind of odd though)

Thanks for clarification. So do you mean by having the permanent finnish residence permit, I can not relocate to another EU member state? Or shall I just stay more in Finland and apply for some other permit?

Cheers.

[tair]

To clarify what Rolfus means, many countries also issue their own "national" permanent residence permits, which are different from the "Long Term Residence Permit" (LTRP) enacted by the aforementioned EU directive. They are not covered by the directive and usually can not be used to move to another EU country.
In this post Obie pointed out that even the "permanent residence" acquired by family members of EU nationals is worse in this regard than LTRP. (apparently it can't be used to move to another EU country after divorce/separation etc., which is kind of odd though)

Oh I found out I can get LTRP in Finland. But what about dependents with permanent residency? Are they allowed to go with me?

Thanks.

[mastermind]

So do you mean by having the permanent finnish residence permit, I can not relocate to another EU member state? Or shall I just stay more in Finland and apply for some other permit?

It depends on Finnish implementation of directive 2003/109/EC I suppose. (and what kind of permit do you hold if there are different kinds of them in Finland) The directive does not prohibit (if memory serves me right) the states to treat all their "permanent residence permits" as LTRPs. (in other words, to issue "LTRPs" to anyone who is a permanent resident in view of local legislation) It only requires them to issue "Long Term Residence Permits" (LTRPs) to those who lived for five years in the country and satisfy other conditions. AFAIR it also even says that the states can choose to relax the residency and other requirements.
But the problem is that the states can still issue distinct "permanent residence permits" under their own legislation (or another EU directive like 2004/38/EC as I mentioned before) which are not covered by the aforementioned directive (and at least several states do AFAIK), so no right to move to another EU country to holders of those.

I suppose the best course of action is to ask Finnish authorities who issued you with your permit or/and the prospective receiving country.

[tair]

So do you mean by having the permanent finnish residence permit, I can not relocate to another EU member state? Or shall I just stay more in Finland and apply for some other permit?

It depends on Finnish implementation of directive 2003/109/EC I suppose. (and what kind of permit do you hold if there are different kinds of them in Finland) The directive does not prohibit (if memory serves me right) the states to treat all their "permanent residence permits" as LTRPs. (in other words, to issue "LTRPs" to anyone who is a permanent resident in view of local legislation) It only requires them to issue "Long Term Residence Permits" (LTRPs) to those who lived for five years in the country and satisfy other conditions. AFAIR it also even says that the states can choose to relax the residency and other requirements.
But the problem is that the states can still issue distinct "permanent residence permits" under their own legislation (or another EU directive like 2004/38/EC as I mentioned before) which are not covered by the aforementioned directive (and at least several states do AFAIK), so no right to move to another EU country to holders of those.

I suppose the best course of action is to ask Finnish authorities who issued you with your permit or/and the prospective receiving country.

Right, I found out that I am able to apply for LTRP with my family since we live over 5 years here and holders of permanent residence. However, what I am wondering is what benefits LTRP will give me in another member state (Spain in this case)? Am I going to be able to work there as I would do in Finland? Or do I need to go through the same process of getting continuous residence permits and then at some point permanent? I mean is there any document/resource which would list the benefits of non-EU arriving to state with LTRP?

Ah this is so complicated. Luckily there are nice people around as you which at least help

Thanks a lot.

[mastermind]

No, you do not have to start from scratch. The new host member state should "exchange" your existing LTRP for it's own on expedited basis. (read the directive for details) However you might run into problems as some states are apparently in no rush to properly enforce the law. See my post in the following topic for example: http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ht=#294635
The guy I mentioned there eventually resolved his problem via SOLVIT but it took a long time. (See also this topic on making SOLVIT more useful http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=66601 )

[tair]

No, you do not have to start from scratch. The new host member state should "exchange" your existing LTRP for it's own on expedited basis. (read the directive for details) However you might run into problems as some states are apparently in no rush to properly enforce the law. See my post in the following topic for example: http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ht=#294635
The guy I mentioned there eventually resolved his problem via SOLVIT but it took a long time. (See also this topic on making SOLVIT more useful http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=66601 )

Excellent. This is what I was looking for. I will now continue searching on how directive is implemented in Spain. Thanks a lot!

[tair]

No, you do not have to start from scratch. The new host member state should "exchange" your existing LTRP for it's own on expedited basis. (read the directive for details) However you might run into problems as some states are apparently in no rush to properly enforce the law. See my post in the following topic for example: http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ht=#294635
The guy I mentioned there eventually resolved his problem via SOLVIT but it took a long time. (See also this topic on making SOLVIT more useful http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=66601 )

Excellent. This is what I was looking for. I will now continue searching on how directive is implemented in Spain. Thanks a lot!

Seems that I need to talk to Spanish authorities.

By the way, I found very good document which analyzes how this directive was implemented in all 12 countries:

http://www.uil.it/immigrazione/guida-inglese2010.pdf

Hopefully it will save someone else time

[lyes1972]

hi there, first of all,spain did nt properly put the law about the long term resideny card,its a mess over here,and even if you get a job,,,,which is wayyyyyy too hard,you will get a 1 year residence card,then 2 years,then another 2 years,so,not that easy,
ah,and you cant do self employed ,you need to be perment resident here first, good luck

[Stefan-TR]

Theoretically, according to this directive, someone with an EU long-term resident permit should be able to move to and work in another EU country (excluding UK, Ireland and Denmark).

Hi all, just to clarify: According to EU law someone with a residence permit in accordance with directive 2003/109/EC can indeed move to another EU country (that is a member to the directive). This gives you an automatic right to live there and obtain a residence permit from the country you're moving to.

The directive does NOT give you an automatic right to work. You will have to check with your future host country if they are kind enough to give you the right to work. For example, in Germany you would receive a reisdence permit pursuant to § 38a of the German Aufenthaltsgesetz, which states that you require authorization before you can take up employment.

[mastermind]

The directive does NOT give you an automatic right to work.

You are mistaken. It does. Part 19 of the Directive's preamble says:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 053:EN:PDF

Provision should be made that the right of residence in
another Member State may be exercised in order to work
in an employed or self-employed capacity, to study or
even to settle without exercising any form of economic
activity.

Also Article 15 ("Conditions for residence in a second Member State") obviously implies right to work or be self employed.

[mastermind]

dup

[86ti]

The directive does NOT give you an automatic right to work.

You are mistaken. It does.

Have you also seen Article 14 (3) and (4)?

[mastermind]

The directive does NOT give you an automatic right to work.

You are mistaken. It does.

Have you also seen Article 14 (3) and (4)?

Ops... You and Stefan-TR are right. There might be restrictions.

[86ti]

The directive does NOT give you an automatic right to work.

You are mistaken. It does.

Have you also seen Article 14 (3) and (4)?

Ops... You and Stefan-TR are right. There might be restrictions.

And some countries have done their best to make this Directive virtually ineffective. Whether that's right or not I can't tell but it's the reality.

[testchimp]

Directive 2003/109/EC is virtually worthless.

Even after you go through hoops and barrels that EU citizens don't have to, you end up with a status which promises everything and delivers nothing. It supposedly gives you rights which are nearly the same as EU citizens. While that sounds nice in theory, reality shows that it means zero.

What Europe has managed to do, though, is to create a legally-defined underclass with expectations of rights. Learn the language, pay your taxes, mind your manners...and you're still treated like dirt.

Europe constantly hems and haws about wanting to attract talented people and for them to move from one part of Europe to the next. However, national authorities do everything they can to hamstring and gut policies which actually promote this idea.

Have a look at Germany... they can't find enough talented people. Instead of liberalising things a bit, authorities insist that everything has to be controlled by them. So what happens? Nothing. Talented people don't come and work gets outsourced or sent to companies who can get the assets to perform a given task. But in the end, the bureaucrats can be happy (which is all that matters).

Whether it's latent nationalism, xenophobia or a simple unwillingness to change, reform is going to have to come from the European level to knock heads together. Until then, Europe's going to keeping slipping down the rankings and policies designed to stop that will fail.

In other words, don't bother.