when my clock start ticking?

[raoulll]

Hi everybody,
i' little be confuse about when i start count to my PR
i came to UK in 2004 (illegal) then i meet my wife in June 2005 and we get married in Islamic marriage in the mosque (i have Islamic marriage certificate) in November 2005 we start life together from that date till now,
as i was illegal that time and the HO doesn't recognise Islamic certificate,i did not have any option only to get married in the English church,which i did in October 2007 then i apply for RC ,which was granted in April 2008
my wife now got her PR, i wondering if I'm eligible to apply for my PR in November 2010 as i start be family to EEA on November 2005 (i got the Islamic certificate and tenancy agreement to proof that)

thank you for your time.

[bobobo]

Since the HO does not recognise the Islamic Certificate, You can only apply for PR in October 2012. 5 years after marriage recognised by the HO. The HO will not consider you married from November 2005.

Hi everybody,
i' little be confuse about when i start count to my PR
i came to UK in 2004 (illegal) then i meet my wife in June 2005 and we get married in Islamic marriage in the mosque (i have Islamic marriage certificate) in November 2005 we start life together from that date till now,
as i was illegal that time and the HO doesn't recognise Islamic certificate,i did not have any option only to get married in the English church,which i did in October 2007 then i apply for RC ,which was granted in April 2008
my wife now got her PR, i wondering if I'm eligible to apply for my PR in November 2010 as i start be family to EEA on November 2005 (i got the Islamic certificate and tenancy agreement to proof that)

thank you for your time.

[Guerro]

If you can prove that you lived with your eea family member for the period from islamic marriage up to the civil marriage, you might apply as unmarried partner.
Just wait for a senior member to correct me if I'm wrong

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You have been living together since November 2005. Your wife is an EU citizen (not from the UK), and has been working and so has recently applied for (and got) confirmation of her PR from the Home Office. This is what I understand of your situation.

I think, from what I can see, that you can apply for your PR in Nov 2010. Even if they do not recognize the islamic marriage per sae, you have been living together as a couple since then.

I do not think there is any harm in applying. Worst they say is "no", and the you should just appeal.

[John]

Will that work? Whilst accepting that there is no harm in applying for PR this year, there is no cost, I think the way it works is that whilst status as a family member happens automatically, for an extended family member it is not automatic, and Treaty Rights are not acquired until the claim for a Residence Card is accepted.

Also such a claim to be treated as an extended family member would not have been accepted unless the couple had lived together for two years, and they actually got legally married within that two year period.

Accordingly I think, on the facts, the 5-year period started with the marriage in October 2007.

[raoulll]

Since the HO does not recognise the Islamic Certificate, You can only apply for PR in October 2012. 5 years after marriage recognised by the HO. The HO will not consider you married from November 2005.

hi bobobo,thank you for your reply,i know that my marriage start in the eyes of HO in 2007 but recently i heard from one of my Friends that the Ho recognise the Islamic Certificate now (as my Friend got RC with just IC)
and he said he wasn't the first who apply with just Islamic Certificate they have others Friends before him and they got RC.
the question now
does the Ho still not recognise the Islamic Certificate?

[John]

raoulll, I think we need to take care here, if only because my understanding that some Mosques in the UK have now registered with their local Register Office .... and accordingly in such Mosques the marriage is not just a religious marriage, but also a legal one as well.

Any possibility of that applying in the case you mention?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I think the way it works is that whilst status as a family member happens automatically, for an extended family member it is not automatic, and Treaty Rights are not acquired until the claim for a Residence Card is accepted.

John, Do you have any references to this, especially the bolded bit?

This would imply that their "status" as a family member only beginning home office gets around to issuing the Residence Card, which is rather odd.

raoulll, note that as long as your EU spouse is working, you have PR 5 years from the date you married (Oct 2007). When your Residence Card was issued is not important for anything which follows.

[John]

I would say that is implied from Article 3.2, which talks about "The host Member State shall undertake an extensive examination of the personal circumstances and shall justify any denial of entry or residence to these people.", which I think justifies my statement. That is, for what the UK calls an extended family member, how would Treaty Rights be obtained until the host Member State has finished its "extensive examination"?

What is more questionable is why the UK still insists upon a couple living together for 2 years before agreeing that they are in a "durable relationship" .... and hopefully that will be tested before the Tribunal and or Court sometime. But the fact is that UKBA do have that stance, so I can't see how the OP will succeed in showing that their 5-year period started any earlier than the date of marriage.

[Plum70]

I tend to agree with John. The EU Directive does not define co-habitation (other than by marriage, CP, registered partnership) as a means by which a non-EEA national is defined as a 'family member' who has automatic rights of residence confirmed by the issuance of a RC.

I feel that until a member state assesses such an application (taking into account co-habitation, a subsisting r/ship etc) and issues a RC acknowledging that they are such a family member, only then does such a non-EEA national's residence clock begin to tick.

I started living with my then b/f before we got married but understand that my rights of residence only began the day we were married. Perhaps my thinking is flawed...

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

John, Plum70,

Sorry I think I still disagree. Let me explain why.

I agree that if you are not married, you do not have automatic right of residence. The member state is allowed to take more time and ask more questions to do an "extensive examination". But that is about the amount of time they can take and the questions they can ask. Once they do the examination, they say "Yes", this relationship is one which is considered to be a family member.

They can do that (take their time and ask questions) even if you have been living together for 20 years and have two children and then you arrive in the UK and immediately submit your Residence Card application to UKBA. But the fact is that you are a family member of an EU citizen on your arrival. Just because it takes UKBA 6 months (or likely more) to process the application, does not mean your rights as a family member only begin once their processing finishes. I think it is pretty clear that in this example, the person could apply for a PR 5 years after arriving in the UK.

An extract from the Border Force Operations Manual - EEA Nationals & their Dependents is perhaps interesting:
[quote]5.5 Procedures when no EEA family permit or residence card is held
5.5.1 Admission of family members who are unable to produce a valid passport, family permit [This is the UKBA name for a visa] or residence card

Immigration officers will need to assess whether or not a person qualifies for admission under the EEA Regulations in the above situations. Ports should take particular note of the guidance on those who seek admission under the extended family member provisions as dependents relatives and as family members of an EEA national with whom they have a “durable relationshipâ€