is right of abode in Indian passport valid ?

[raikal]

I have seen people taking right of abode sticker in Indian passport for the kids who are born to people with status PR. ( May be because they are automatically british citizens when they were born )

If that is the case, When Indian national, naturalises in UK can he go for right of abode in Indian passport ?

Does right of abode implied that you are a BN. If that is the case, right of abode is not valid to take it on Indian passport as indian govt does not allow dual nationallity. It may be true for Americans ?

Please clairfy

[lemess]

This topic has been discussed before. the bottom line is that due to a quirk of rules, you can have a right of abode in your indian passport in some cases. however as soon as you apply for a UK passport you are required to surrender your Indian passport at the HC. This mostly applies to kids born in the UK before 2004 I believe. They can be Indian citizens and have an entitlement to UK citizenship too by birth but provided they do not apply for a UK passport, they are allowed to travel on an Indian passport. The act of applying for a UK passport effectively signals that are exercising their entitlement to Uk citizenship and therefore lose their Indian citizenship.

[ppron747]

I have seen people taking right of abode sticker in Indian passport for the kids who are born to people with status PR. ( May be because they are automatically british citizens when they were born )
If that is the case, When Indian national, naturalises in UK can he go for right of abode in Indian passport ?

Not without breaking Indian law, as I understand it, because the second that he naturalises as a BC, he is not longer Indian.

Does right of abode implied that you are a BN. If that is the case, right of abode is not valid to take it on Indian passport as indian govt does not allow dual nationallity.

YES; in general, having the right of abode in the UK under the Immigration Act 1971 does mean that you are a British citizen.
The only exceptions are:
- Commonwealth citizen born before 1 January 1983 whose (British) mother was born in the UK and
- Commonwealth citizen women married before 1 January 1983 to a man with the right of abode.

If a C of E has "2(1)(a)" on it, it means the holder is is a British citizen. If it's "2(1)(b)" it means they're not.

It may be true for Americans ?
Please clairfy

I don't understand the question....

[raikal]

My question was:
If an american citizen naturalise as BN, and goes for right of abode in American passport is legal. but
If an Indian citizen naturalise as BN and goes for right of abode ( without applying for British passport ) is not legal.

British govt does not check the validity of foreign passport they just put the sticker of ROI on whichever passport you send.

Am I correct ?

If I am correct I dont understand lemses reply
A kid born in UK and goes for ROI in indian passport is valid
naturalise as BN, and goes for ROI is indian passport is not valid.

I am confused.

[mhunjn]

Once you acquire BN, you are supposed to send ur Indian passport back to IHC to be cancelled.

Now if you don't do that, and use that passport to get right of abode stamp as well, you are committing an offence as the Indian govt / constitution does not allow you to have a valid indian passport when you have taken up another country's citizenship.

So, even if you do get a sticker on the Indian passport, it won't be of any use... as it's illegal.
Again, why would a person want to get a right of abode sticker on an indian passport when he's already taken up BN?... and be on the wrong side of the law as well?...

Surely, the PIO or the OIC card would helpin this situation?...

[ppron747]

My question was:
If an american citizen naturalise as BN, and goes for right of abode in American passport is legal. but
If an Indian citizen naturalise as BN and goes for right of abode ( without applying for British passport ) is not legal.
British govt does not check the validity of foreign passport they just put the sticker of ROI on whichever passport you send.
Am I correct ?

Yes - within reason...
They would generally accept the holding of another country's passport at face value. So far as I can see from the IND and UKVisas websites, C of E applications are handled no differently from visa applications in this regard. The only exception that I can think of is the issue of a C of E which depended on the applicant being a Commonwealth citizen, rather than a British citizen - see 2(1)(b) in my previous post. Plainly, if the ECO had reason to believe that the individual wasn't a Commonwealth citizen, then he'd have a duty - in a 2(1)(b) application -to look more closely at the case, because if he's not a Commonwealth citizen, the applicant doesn't have the right of abode.

If I am correct I dont understand lemses reply
A kid born in UK and goes for ROI in indian passport is valid
naturalise as BN, and goes for ROI is indian passport is not valid.
I am confused.

You're not the only one! I think the point is that a child born in UK to a "settled" parent is British automatically, and someone in this position isn't deemed by the Government of India to have acquired another citizenship until he voluntarily acquires a British passport. So he's OK as long as he only has a C of E, not a Brit passport. His only real disadvantage is that his Indian passport doesn't prove to, say, the German authorities that he's an EU national, so he still needs a visa to go to Germany, and he can't live there as an EU national.

[Dawie]

An important point to realise is that if you obtain British citizenship and get a right of abode sticker in your Indian passport you are breaking INDIAN law and not British law. In terms of Indian law you automatically lose your Indian citizenship when you acquire British citizenship and therefore it could be concluded that your Indian passport is no longer valid.

However this cannot be practically possible because once you have acquired British citizenship you STILL need to use your Indian passport to confirm your identity when applying for a British passport as your Indian passport will presumably be your only valid proof of identity. But if your Indian passport is no longer valid because technically you are no longer an Indian citizen then presumably it cannot legally be used as a reliable proof of identity. So what do you do? You are a British citizen (and you have the naturalisation certificate to proof it) but the only proof of identity linking you to that naturalisation certificate is no longer valid.

[ppron747]

Come on, Dawie, I think you're splitting hairs in your second paragraph!
The passport doesn't self-destruct, and neither do you look different from the photo in it, just because you're now British...
Do you think that either the Post Office or the UKPS do more than look at the passport, and check that the person pictured in it is the person before them?

[raikal]

OK guys,

Now i agree that ROA is illegal in Indian passports.

how is that valid for the children who are born in UK to PR parent ?

Regards
Raikal

[ppron747]

OK guys,
Now i agree that ROA is illegal in Indian passports.
how is that valid for the children who are born in UK to PR parent ?
Regards
Raikal

As Perry Mason would say: "Asked and answered, your honor..." Have a look at the final paragraph of my post of 12.43pm. That's my understanding of it, but if you want another opinion, stick around - there'll be a fresh one along in a minute

[JAJ]

OK guys,

Now i agree that ROA is illegal in Indian passports.

how is that valid for the children who are born in UK to PR parent ?

Because many of those born before 2004 acquired both Indian and British citizenship at birth. As long as they don't get British passports, they keep Indian.

From 2004, India insists on registration for UK born children and they will need proof the child is not British. So it doesn't work in these cases.

Nor can it work where the child is registered as a British citizen (if parent gets PR after the birth).

[ppron747]

...From 2004, India insists on registration for UK born children and they will need proof the child is not British. So it doesn't work in these cases...

Does that mean that no child upon whom the UK government imposes British citizenship can become an Indian, even though the parents have no choice in the matter, and cannot renounce BC on the child's behalf? If one of the parents (born before 1.1.83) happens to have UK-born mother they wouldn't even have the choice as to whether to be "settled" in UK when they're here, given that there's no provision to renounce the right of abode.
Sounds a bit draconian...

[JAJ]

...From 2004, India insists on registration for UK born children and they will need proof the child is not British. So it doesn't work in these cases...

Does that mean that no child upon whom the UK government imposes British citizenship can become an Indian, even though the parents have no choice in the matter, and cannot renounce BC on the child's behalf? If one of the parents (born before 1.1.83) happens to have UK-born mother they wouldn't even have the choice as to whether to be "settled" in UK when they're here, given that there's no provision to renounce the right of abode.
Sounds a bit draconian...

If child is born on after 3 December 2004 that indeed seems to be the case, according to Wikipedia at least:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_nationality_law

From 3 December 2004, a person born outside India shall not be a citizen of India unless his birth is registered at an Indian consulate within one year of the date of birth, or with the permission of the Central Government after the expiry of the one year period. An application, for registration of the birth of a minor child, must be made to an Indian consulate and must be accompanied by an undertaking in writing from the parents of such minor child that he or she does not hold the passport of another country.


I thought most Indian citizens living in the UK wanted their children to be British anyway.

[ppron747]

If child is born on after 3 December 2004 that indeed seems to be the case, according to Wikipedia at least:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_nationality_law

From 3 December 2004, a person born outside India shall not be a citizen of India unless his birth is registered at an Indian consulate within one year of the date of birth, or with the permission of the Central Government after the expiry of the one year period. An application, for registration of the birth of a minor child, must be made to an Indian consulate and must be accompanied by an undertaking in writing from the parents of such minor child that he or she does not hold the passport of another country.....

Hang on (to coin a phrase!)
The Wiki entry talks about an undertaking that the child doesn't hold the passport of another country - not the citizenship, or a Certificate of Entitlement to the right of abode, which is how the question arose...

[Dawie]

A passport is just a physical manifestation of your citizenship, whether you hold a passport or not doesn't change the material fact that you are a citizen. I'm pretty sure that when you have to give an undertaking that your child doesn't hold the passport of another country that they actually mean citizenship.

It's a common mistake that people make substituting the word passport for citizenship. Like when immigrants say they want to get a British passport, they actually mean they want to get British citizenship. The passport is just a travel document that you can obtain as a consequence of holding that citizenship.

[ppron747]

A passport is just a physical manifestation of your citizenship, whether you hold a passport or not doesn't change the material fact that you are a citizen. I'm pretty sure that when you have to give an undertaking that your child doesn't hold the passport of another country that they actually mean citizenship.

No. The following appears on the Indian Ministry of Home Affairs website

(iii) A person born outside India on or after 3rd Decmber, 2004 shall not be a citizen of India, unless the parents declare that the minor does not hold passport of another country and his birth is registered at an Indian consulate within one year of the date of birth or with the permission of the Central Government, after the expiry of the said period.

It's a common mistake that people make substituting the word passport for citizenship. Like when immigrants say they want to get a British passport, they actually mean they want to get British citizenship. The passport is just a travel document that you can obtain as a consequence of holding that citizenship.

PEOPLE might make that mistake, but governments don't tend to. The point is that a child has no choice (while it is a minor) as to its nationality. In most countries (possibly all...) parents cannot renounce a citizenship on behalf of their child. The Indian government plainly recognises this, and allows a child to have dual nationality provided that the parents don't get a passport for the child in the other nationality.