Citizenship 'denied for penalty points'

[Southern_Sky]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 35173.html

Belonging
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC56mOMVQMw

[Southern_Sky]

''Instead of a proud new citizen, we now have a hurt, excluded, long-term resident in our midst. The Minister’s approach to citizenship is a litany of lost opportunities for Irish society''

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/let ... 65342.html

[fatty patty]

Sad, problem is no one understands especially politicians/media that its only given to the chosen few people who fit the description or look bling bling. For e.g. Dil Wickermasinghe (Newstalk presenter) she makes a point that she has been approved this year and and said that she had 5 penalty points, while others are refused for 2 points etc. Would INIS wanna refuse Dil who has mic in her hand, reaching to thousands of audience and presenting on a very strong radio station? It will be a suicide in INIS point of view, so they play ssshhh..nod nod wink wink policy.

You have a look at fast tracked apps on citizenship timeline tracker board, ones who are approved are belonging to different set of countries yet when it comes to South Asia/South America/Africa its a much much longer wait. Also it depends on how much one earns....if you have 80k salary and one has 20k, both paying tax according to their means, who do you think is going to be fast tracked? As far as Spouses of Irish getting in 26 months...its all horse manure!

[walrusgumble]

Sad, problem is no one understands especially politicians/media that its only given to the chosen few people who fit the description or look bling bling. For e.g. Dil Wickermasinghe (Newstalk presenter) she makes a point that she has been approved this year and and said that she had 5 penalty points, while others are refused for 2 points etc. Would INIS wanna refuse Dil who has mic in her hand, reaching to thousands of audience and presenting on a very strong radio station? It will be a suicide in INIS point of view, so they play ssshhh..nod nod wink wink policy.

You have a look at fast tracked apps on citizenship timeline tracker board, ones who are approved are belonging to different set of countries yet when it comes to South Asia/South America/Africa its a much much longer wait. Also it depends on how much one earns....if you have 80k salary and one has 20k, both paying tax according to their means, who do you think is going to be fast tracked? As far as Spouses of Irish getting in 26 months...its all horse manure!

You know full well that those who earn 80k are paying more tax compared to the 20k. THe state would be of the view that the 80k person will likely maintain their employment and would be less likely to rely on state resources. The State's attitude is that only people / or worthy people who will give real contributions ie employment, investment etc need apply.

[9jeirean]

Sad, problem is no one understands especially politicians/media that its only given to the chosen few people who fit the description or look bling bling. For e.g. Dil Wickermasinghe (Newstalk presenter) she makes a point that she has been approved this year and and said that she had 5 penalty points, while others are refused for 2 points etc. Would INIS wanna refuse Dil who has mic in her hand, reaching to thousands of audience and presenting on a very strong radio station? It will be a suicide in INIS point of view, so they play ssshhh..nod nod wink wink policy.

You have a look at fast tracked apps on citizenship timeline tracker board, ones who are approved are belonging to different set of countries yet when it comes to South Asia/South America/Africa its a much much longer wait. Also it depends on how much one earns....if you have 80k salary and one has 20k, both paying tax according to their means, who do you think is going to be fast tracked? As far as Spouses of Irish getting in 26 months...its all horse manure!

You know full well that those who earn 80k are paying more tax compared to the 20k. THe state would be of the view that the 80k person will likely maintain their employment and would be less likely to rely on state resources. The State's attitude is that only people / or worthy people who will give real contributions ie employment, investment etc need apply.

We are heading back to the passport for money terrain again aren't we? BTW, what stops the minister from clearly making a stipulated minimum earning an open policy for citizenship applications if he is confident that it is a fair thing to do? At least then, everyone will know where they stand and more importantly the whole world can see in black and white where Ireland is re naturalization.

Why denying people based on parochial paranoia of what they may likely do as against what they have been proven to have done i.e being law abiding, fulfilling all tax obligations and proven track records of not dependent on state for financial support.

About 80K P/A earning, you must be having a laugh dude. Last time I checked, a minimum of five thousands top level executives and senior managers are to become redundant in the HSE. BTW, what percentage of the general Irish population earns 80K P/A assuming that is what you consider a financially safe zone?

[Southern_Sky]

Perhaps these are the salaries they would accept from applicants
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/edu ... 50573.html

[fatty patty]

Sad, problem is no one understands especially politicians/media that its only given to the chosen few people who fit the description or look bling bling. For e.g. Dil Wickermasinghe (Newstalk presenter) she makes a point that she has been approved this year and and said that she had 5 penalty points, while others are refused for 2 points etc. Would INIS wanna refuse Dil who has mic in her hand, reaching to thousands of audience and presenting on a very strong radio station? It will be a suicide in INIS point of view, so they play ssshhh..nod nod wink wink policy.

You have a look at fast tracked apps on citizenship timeline tracker board, ones who are approved are belonging to different set of countries yet when it comes to South Asia/South America/Africa its a much much longer wait. Also it depends on how much one earns....if you have 80k salary and one has 20k, both paying tax according to their means, who do you think is going to be fast tracked? As far as Spouses of Irish getting in 26 months...its all horse manure!

You know full well that those who earn 80k are paying more tax compared to the 20k. THe state would be of the view that the 80k person will likely maintain their employment and would be less likely to rely on state resources. The State's attitude is that only people / or worthy people who will give real contributions ie employment, investment etc need apply.

Thats discrimination by the Irish state towards its immigrants then...and i stress discrimination. Because at present there is no written stipulation by the authorities that anyone under 20k need not apply. Mind you 80k do pay more tax but are most vulnerable as compared to someone working below 30k as they are most likely to be kept and the ones above gets the chop in restructuring. And they are the ones who will be massive burden when it comes to SW due to their lifestyle but anway these are assumptions. 9j points it out very well. Look mate at the end of the day regardless of someone earning 80/20k should not make a difference. They lived 5/3 years, didn't break any laws, they have paid taxes (according to their means) and that should be it in INIS eyes. The point is it's quiet discrimination by the minister because its under his discretion cloak as Dil from newstalk put up in mild terms in her speech about her case. I say to any one here sir Justify this someone who has 5 penalty points getting citizenship to someone who is refused on 2! What is the logic?

[walrusgumble]

Sad, problem is no one understands especially politicians/media that its only given to the chosen few people who fit the description or look bling bling. For e.g. Dil Wickermasinghe (Newstalk presenter) she makes a point that she has been approved this year and and said that she had 5 penalty points, while others are refused for 2 points etc. Would INIS wanna refuse Dil who has mic in her hand, reaching to thousands of audience and presenting on a very strong radio station? It will be a suicide in INIS point of view, so they play ssshhh..nod nod wink wink policy.

You have a look at fast tracked apps on citizenship timeline tracker board, ones who are approved are belonging to different set of countries yet when it comes to South Asia/South America/Africa its a much much longer wait. Also it depends on how much one earns....if you have 80k salary and one has 20k, both paying tax according to their means, who do you think is going to be fast tracked? As far as Spouses of Irish getting in 26 months...its all horse manure!

You know full well that those who earn 80k are paying more tax compared to the 20k. THe state would be of the view that the 80k person will likely maintain their employment and would be less likely to rely on state resources. The State's attitude is that only people / or worthy people who will give real contributions ie employment, investment etc need apply.

Thats discrimination by the Irish state towards its immigrants then...and i stress discrimination. Because at present there is no written stipulation by the authorities that anyone under 20k need not apply. Mind you 80k do pay more tax but are most vulnerable as compared to someone working below 30k as they are most likely to be kept and the ones above gets the chop in restructuring. And they are the ones who will be massive burden when it comes to SW due to their lifestyle but anway these are assumptions. 9j points it out very well. Look mate at the end of the day regardless of someone earning 80/20k should not make a difference. They lived 5/3 years, didn't break any laws, they have paid taxes (according to their means) and that should be it in INIS eyes. The point is it's quiet discrimination by the minister because its under his discretion cloak as Dil from newstalk put up in mild terms in her speech about her case. I say to any one here sir Justify this someone who has 5 penalty points getting citizenship to someone who is refused on 2! What is the logic?

Discrimination all you like, but no european institute is going to stop it. they can't. The Irish courts won't either for various reasons, personnel and separation of powers.

One of the key issues a minister will or has to take into account, is the likely population in 5-10 years time, (citizenship) state resources, pensions etc and likely hood of certain groups being more reliant on welfare etc.

But where is the discrimination? No where in the legislation does it say all those who meet the criteria and apply will get citizenship. The Minister is entitled to cherry pick the "right people". He /she is naturally going to reward/honour those who have more ability to contribute to this state than 50 others whose contributions can be done by others.


I must say, the British are no different. But, at least they specifically spell out the limitations in their legislation


By the way, please do provide evidence that those who earn 80K are getting fast tracked than those on 20K. I am insisting that you lay out specifics and evidence and not hearsay. If that is the case, one should speak to a lawyer!!!!! That is a serious allegation, if you can't back that one up, you should not be running your mouth. If you can, of course, please do share the information



But the penalty points lark, that IS ridiculous. If a judge gets them (assuming those wink nod days are over, does that mean he will be kicked off the bench? ) How many of these penalty points cases lead to court appearances?. I must say, there is us believing that the pulse system was shi5te. Fair play to Gardaí and Road Authority in that they can get you information in double quick time when it suits them

[daddy]

walrusgumble, may I ask if you do know Irish Tom in this forum?,
You are more like him !!!

There should be equal treatment for all, that is one of the attributes of a democratic society. The minister should not pick who he likes and grant him or her citizenship, no favouratism. With due respecct, I disagree with you on your last reply on this post.

[acme4242]

There should be equal treatment for all, that is one of the attributes of a democratic society. The minister should not pick who he likes and grant him or her citizenship, no favouratism. With due respecct, I disagree with you on your last reply on this post.

And they call themselves the Ministry of Justice and Equality

more akin to the Ministry of Truth and Ministry of Love in a well known book 1984

[9jeirean]

By the way, please do provide evidence that those who earn 80K are getting fast tracked than those on 20K. I am insisting that you lay out specifics and evidence and not hearsay. If that is the case, one should speak to a lawyer!!!!! That is a serious allegation, if you can't back that one up, you should not be running your mouth. If you can, of course, please do share the information

You know what, for someone who claims to be involved in the legal profession, your style of argument, even at the most rudimentary, your train of thoughts actually is laughable. On one hand you wrote this as a response to Fatty Patty's post

THe state would be of the view that the 80k person will likely maintain their employment and would be less likely to rely on state resources. The State's attitude is that only people / or worthy people who will give real contributions ie employment, investment etc need apply.

and when your flawed argument got thrown in your face, you retorted back to counter challenging a premise that you have provided what we are supposed to believe is the state position on.

I personally have stopped taking a lot of what you write around here as anything worthy of consideration. But hey it's a free world, continue to amuse yourself behind your little computer screen. Someone up there compare you to Irish Tom, but I say IT at least makes no such laughable attempt at hiding his lovely under some pedantic piece of senseless junk.

As I said, keep on amusing yourself. We all need a bit of distraction from the mess the country is in.

[walrusgumble]

By the way, please do provide evidence that those who earn 80K are getting fast tracked than those on 20K. I am insisting that you lay out specifics and evidence and not hearsay. If that is the case, one should speak to a lawyer!!!!! That is a serious allegation, if you can't back that one up, you should not be running your mouth. If you can, of course, please do share the information

You know what, for someone who claims to be involved in the legal profession, your style of argument, even at the most rudimentary, your train of thoughts actually is laughable. On one hand you wrote this as a response to Fatty Patty's post

THe state would be of the view that the 80k person will likely maintain their employment and would be less likely to rely on state resources. The State's attitude is that only people / or worthy people who will give real contributions ie employment, investment etc need apply.

and when your flawed argument got thrown in your face, you retorted back to counter challenging a premise that you have provided what we are supposed to believe is the state position on.

I personally have stopped taking a lot of what you write around here as anything worthy of consideration. But hey it's a free world, continue to amuse yourself behind your little computer screen. Someone up there compare you to Irish Tom, but I say IT at least makes no such laughable attempt at hiding his lovely under some pedantic piece of senseless junk.

As I said, keep on amusing yourself. We all need a bit of distraction from the mess the country is in.

excuse me, but please point out where i have or do say i am part of the legal profession?. i am not, nor ever have or ever will be. so get your facts straight!. now go and search for any comment that says i have? when you can't you can then acknowledge that you were wrong.

you get asked to provide evidence of what you are saying because a lot of it is nonsense/usual feling sorry for one self conspiracies.

by all means please don't reply to any post. because you are not capable of telling the difference between a posters opinion and a statement of fact and or the crystal clear message that the department of justice is giving. nor can you seem to note saracism, and cycnism towards the government.you can laugh all you want but its yourself that is this position not me.

if you cant back up what you say, shut up or put up

now, since you made a reference to a quote. who do you think is likely to rely on welfare in the future, minimum wagers or a high earner (who will possibly be self employed and not entitled to certain state pension rights on retirement unless they make their own contributions? where is the how many minium wagers can afford to put money aside for their pension? i refered to this tosh about it being discrmination. i explained why it is not. maybe knowing what makes illegal discrmination would be a start.

you are very quick to point out this that and the other. so, cut the crap and answer a question that i have put before people complaining about citizenship, what is the position on the acquirement of citizenship in YOUR country? is it fair?

by the way, someone referred to the cash for passport lark, lovely, you would swear that ye were actually in the country to have a bloody clue what ye are talking about. you also swear that no other country ever did it. that scheme, by the way had potential and was screwed by one or two scum bags who are not capable of complyng with the laws of another country (not ireland) it was a novel scheme in order to try and encourage the money men to come to ireland in the 1980's to invest in the country. the problem, it was not granted by an independent body.

you name one country that is not concerned ,when issuing passports with the flow of population ,and ability to provide for ALL citizens regardless of original nationality. how is that flawes or bigoted. no person in this country includng me, gives a damn about one's nationality when they seek and obtain citizenship. what one does care about is whether they desersve it ie by being completely crimnal free and social welfare free (now and in the future) if you have not noticed already or noticed from history of this country, when the economy is bad here, the government does very little to encourage irish citizens to stay in ireland, never mind non nationals. they are secretly relieved that many irish people leave to, as a number of social commentators have put it, "to ease the valve"look at the reducing dole que. you you full well why that is, don't you? it makes the books look good

by the way, if you actually read my replies in response to patty on that statement you quoted, there is nothing there that i actually disagrees with him. we were both saying the same thing. the differences is that he suggests that the rich are being fast tracked (ie getting decisions, whether a grant or refusal) quicker. i am suggesting the critieria for out right refusal. i do not believe that one gets their decision quicker before another on the basis of their wealth. i am suggesting they are actually getting a positive decision (that take 24 months) on basis of their pocket. two different basis of opinion.

if patty is right, ie applications are being considered quicker or be skipped, then this means that the government are lying in that it is not a first come first serve and then the delays are completely unjustible and they can't rely on the trusty state resources argument. if patty is right it smacks of brown envelopes, and just because one has the safety of being behind the computer does not mean they should be allowed to get away with serious allegations, that are, quite frankly about corruption. if he has got the proofs they should be made public so that victims can expose the government.

has that been broken down more simplier?

[walrusgumble]

There should be equal treatment for all, that is one of the attributes of a democratic society. The minister should not pick who he likes and grant him or her citizenship, no favouratism. With due respecct, I disagree with you on your last reply on this post.

And they call themselves the Ministry of Justice and Equality

more akin to the Ministry of Truth and Ministry of Love in a well known book 1984

you will be glad to know that they dropped the equality bit from the title. your coi mut be great

[walrusgumble]

walrusgumble, may I ask if you do know Irish Tom in this forum?,
You are more like him !!!

There should be equal treatment for all, that is one of the attributes of a democratic society. The minister should not pick who he likes and grant him or her citizenship, no favouratism. With due respecct, I disagree with you on your last reply on this post.

in an ideal world you would be correct. respectively. but there is nothing in the constitution or european instruments that says he can't. sure look at how strict it is to become a citizen of germany, there, they don't recognise dual citizenship. if it was a case that one is refused permission to live and work here that is a completely different story all together. but to grant or refuse citizenship which does not effect one's residence is the other side. look at britian with the high profile case of mohammed al fayed. a person who has put millions into the british economy and social life via various scopes such as fulham fc.

you can disagree all you want, but it is the correct statement. The act remains, until the legislation is changed dramatically the minister has the absolute power. i don't agree with that myself to the extent that he / she is not accountable and appears as suggested by one fine gaeler recently, a law onto him/herself.

Who do you think should decide the case? Its within the Minister's portfolio and no one else. he / she is mandated to represent the interests of the irish Citizens only (well, suppose too) It's their right and interests that come first. (and also those who fall under relevant eu law - something, the eu can not and will not have a say in ie citizenship)The same in any other country

nobody here including me, believes that a speeding ticket/penalty points should be a ground for refusal. i have said this time and time again. however, one gets this by breaking the law

if people keep their nose clean and stay out of trouble by all means they should get citizenship within a reasonable time period in a way that the state can afford to process and grant same.

[fatty patty]

Discrimination all you like, but no european institute is going to stop it. they can't. The Irish courts won't either for various reasons, personnel and separation of powers.

One of the key issues a minister will or has to take into account, is the likely population in 5-10 years time, (citizenship) state resources, pensions etc and likely hood of """""certain groups being more reliant on welfare etc."""""

If that would have been an employer they would have been done for not being "equal opportunities employer", dragged to court, hanged upside down by the judge and spanked on their bottoms! (figure of speech). We are not living in Saudi Arabia/UAE where they can treat their immigrants shite who are building the emirates with their blood, sweat and taxes. That's false economy you want Eire to be like this? Wake up, look before you leap mate you are not that daft.

But where is the discrimination? No where in the legislation does it say all those who meet the criteria and apply will get citizenship. The Minister is entitled to cherry pick the "right people". He /she is naturally going to reward/honour those who have more ability to contribute to this state than 50 others whose contributions can be done by others.

This is the very point, it doesnt say ... leading it to be discriminatory. "Right people" ... why dont minister advertise on the citizenship poster that only blonde/blue eyed needed apply. What is the descripton of the "Right People"? How can one prejudge that a national from Timbaktu who paid such an such amount of contribution will claim welfare in the future? Does the minister have a crystal ball, and if you say he is going to rely on statistic then we dont have to go far from stephen green (DoJ) towards merrion street (finance) to see how wrong these statistics can be by this govt.

I must say, the British are no different. But, at least they specifically spell out the limitations in their legislation

Do i need say more?

By the way, please do provide evidence that those who earn 80K are getting fast tracked than those on 20K. I am insisting that you lay out specifics and evidence and not hearsay. If that is the case, one should speak to a lawyer!!!!! That is a serious allegation, if you can't back that one up, you should not be running your mouth. If you can, of course, please do share the information.

Wouldn't make a differnce on you even i provided you page after page of evidence . This is the problem...there is no proof....as minister's department don't give a toss about transparency, you know why, because this department deals with the most vulnerable in the society, IMMIGRANTS! As i said time and time again and it is not rocket science...who gives a 5HITE! Look what just happened to elderly in nursing care, that was disgraceful and HSE/Mary Harney dragged by the ombudsman (fair play to ombudsman), because people care about this issue, its government responsiblity to be clear cut. I wish ombudsman looks at INIS too.

But the penalty points lark, that IS ridiculous. If a judge gets them (assuming those wink nod days are over, does that mean he will be kicked off the bench? )How many of these penalty points cases lead to court appearances?. I must say, there is us believing that the pulse system was shi5te. Fair play to Gardaí and Road Authority in that they can get you information in double quick time when it suits them

Lost in translation, I cant understand the above are you agreeing or disagreeing but anyway....alot of fixed penalty point notices don't go to court if the offender pay the fine and agree to the charge, they stay 3 years on license and then go away. Remember, when a person is drunk/arrested/wreckless driving he gets on to the pulse system then (criminal offense), otherwise its a road traffic system, which is still under control/accessible by gardai and frequently used to provide good character report to INIS. (info thanks to a solicitor)

[walrusgumble]

Discrimination all you like, but no european institute is going to stop it. they can't. The Irish courts won't either for various reasons, personnel and separation of powers.

One of the key issues a minister will or has to take into account, is the likely population in 5-10 years time, (citizenship) state resources, pensions etc and likely hood of """""certain groups being more reliant on welfare etc."""""

If that would have been an employer they would have been done for not being "equal opportunities employer", dragged to court, hanged upside down by the judge and spanked on their bottoms! (figure of speech). We are not living in Saudi Arabia/UAE where they can treat their immigrants shite who are building the emirates with their blood, sweat and taxes. That's false economy you want Eire to be like this? Wake up, look before you leap mate you are not that daft.

But where is the discrimination? No where in the legislation does it say all those who meet the criteria and apply will get citizenship. The Minister is entitled to cherry pick the "right people". He /she is naturally going to reward/honour those who have more ability to contribute to this state than 50 others whose contributions can be done by others.

This is the very point, it doesnt say ... leading it to be discriminatory. "Right people" ... why dont minister advertise on the citizenship poster that only blonde/blue eyed needed apply. What is the descripton of the "Right People"? How can one prejudge that a national from Timbaktu who paid such an such amount of contribution will claim welfare in the future? Does the minister have a crystal ball, and if you say he is going to rely on statistic then we dont have to go far from stephen green (DoJ) towards merrion street (finance) to see how wrong these statistics can be by this govt.

I must say, the British are no different. But, at least they specifically spell out the limitations in their legislation

Do i need say more?

By the way, please do provide evidence that those who earn 80K are getting fast tracked than those on 20K. I am insisting that you lay out specifics and evidence and not hearsay. If that is the case, one should speak to a lawyer!!!!! That is a serious allegation, if you can't back that one up, you should not be running your mouth. If you can, of course, please do share the information.

Wouldn't make a differnce on you even i provided you page after page of evidence . This is the problem...there is no proof....as minister's department don't give a toss about transparency, you know why, because this department deals with the most vulnerable in the society, IMMIGRANTS! As i said time and time again and it is not rocket science...who gives a 5HITE! Look what just happened to elderly in nursing care, that was disgraceful and HSE/Mary Harney dragged by the ombudsman (fair play to ombudsman), because people care about this issue, its government responsiblity to be clear cut. I wish ombudsman looks at INIS too.

But the penalty points lark, that IS ridiculous. If a judge gets them (assuming those wink nod days are over, does that mean he will be kicked off the bench? )How many of these penalty points cases lead to court appearances?. I must say, there is us believing that the pulse system was shi5te. Fair play to Gardaí and Road Authority in that they can get you information in double quick time when it suits them

Lost in translation, I cant understand the above are you agreeing or disagreeing but anyway....alot of fixed penalty point notices don't go to court if the offender pay the fine and agree to the charge, they stay 3 years on license and then go away. Remember, when a person is drunk/arrested/wreckless driving he gets on to the pulse system then (criminal offense), otherwise its a road traffic system, which is still under control/accessible by gardai and frequently used to provide good character report to INIS. (info thanks to a solicitor)

re: the employer bit. absolutely, and rightly so. but remember patty, the government were clever boyos when they made sure that they were not under the equality acts. also, the right of citizenship, the highest honour this country can give a non national, is different to the legal right of a non national to access to work, education etc.so don't get hysterical!!! you won't be deported, refused employment, education etc because you are not irish. respectively, intentionly mixing up the rght to reside and work with the right of citizenship potentially is making some look daft.no need to refer to saudi arabia. there are plenty of countries within the eu to compare treatment to non nationals. anyway, illegal discrimination is based on race, religion, sex, etc not your earning capacity. moreover, in fairness, even the 20ker has and does get citizenship and rightly so.

why would i need to wake up by the way? the false economy???/ oh sweet jesus, the period of 2002-2008 was the period of the false economy. how is the non national without the big pockets going to do different?(just the same as the irish with small pockets) i am sorry but that line made no sense whatsoever, you are well aware of the pointers from previous threads

by the way, as a non irish person, it should be pointed to you that the name of this country, when speaking the english language is Ireland and not Eire. Eire is the name of this country when speaking Irish. Considering your government coped on and grew up by refraining from using that phrase when describing this country in the english language, you would think that you would too. suppose you call wales cymru or germany deutchland?

any sources on the fast tracking? seriosly, you would have a rocket i you get it

the second part. you are right on that one. it would at least be more open, like the british. the blond hair, ooohhhhh didn't europe once try that lol. before you jump to more hysterics its referring to law abiding and hard working people who are prepared to integrate into irish society (without neccessarily loosing or getting rid of their own culture) the minister does not have a crystal ball, that is why, i believe, regardless of whether he is right or wrong, he is delaying on the citizenship applications ,buyng time if you will. you do know what kind of a person aherne is don't you? not the liberal type. funny enough patty, finance was the post aherne really wants, not neccessarily because he would be good (probably won't) but cause of power and belief that he would be next in line. fair point about the maths. at this juncture, you know what they are doing without any need to argue further

third. it would not make a flying bit of a difference on whether or not it would have an effect on me. it is for the courts to decide not me as to whether the minister has justifibly delayed or not. i am just giving you a suggestion. just note, that i should not be the only one accussed of laughable nonsense!

as for the british way of dealing with things. no you need not. a better and effective way. still many still then would not be applying as the criteria is ully spelt out

vulnerable in society. can't argue with the your view on the department of justice and immgrants. ombudsman inequiry would help. you are aware of their treatment in asylum centres too.

the penalty points bit. that is my sacrastic comment of one rule for one group and another rule for another group. i am not in favour of refusals solely on the basis of penalty points which never resulted in court appearances as anyone can get them. if however, court appears is required, it indicates someone broke the law. but even then, if its minor, it would be unfair to punish by refusing. the gardaí bit, when dealing with them for various issues, eg house break in, they can be very slow. but when they have to act especially when its in their favour my god they do. when you want simple things done like a police clearance cert for a job it takes ages, yet when they want, they can get it quick when minister clicks the finger

[leinster]

hi guys,

I know a guy who got his citizenship aaproved while he was still banned for driving cos of drink drive.

[walrusgumble]

hi guys,

I know a guy who got his citizenship aaproved while he was still banned for driving cos of drink drive.

Did he appeal the ban or is appeal pending?

did this occur before or after making the application?

can you actually substantiate this? If so, can you get him to help ye? go to a solicitor / ngo and speak with them

[9jeirean]

@Walrusgumble:

For someone with penchant for jumping on high horses and making pejorative remarks about others, you don't seem to cope well with taking a dose of your own medicine do you? SMH, but that's besides the point. Let see what we have here:

excuse me, but please point out where i have or do say i am part of the legal profession?. i am not, nor ever have or ever will be. so get your facts straight!.

So, when next you're filling out a profile info on a public forum you may want to be sure put in the right info re what you do or better still leave it blank.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/profil ... 9c8460eeb9

You know what,you are right you are not part of the legal profession. You are more like a glorified paper pusher for a solicitor

http://www.irishinstituteoflegalexecuti ... mbers.html

(now i think Irish Tom was actually right about the whole 'Tea boy' thingy). To think you have the audacity to come here and discount the contributions of many hard working immigrants on the basis of their earnings. What you and the the likes of you fail to get is that these people do these jobs because these were the jobs that native Irish people refused to do. Of course it's a bit more fancy to sit in a solicitor's office even if all you do is make tea for the solicitor and his clients while spending the rest of the day making pejorative remarks about immigrants on public forums.

by all means please don't reply to any post. because you are not capable of telling the difference between a posters opinion and a statement of fact and or the crystal clear message that the department of justice is giving. nor can you seem to note saracism, and cycnism towards the government.

who do you think is likely to rely on welfare in the future, minimum wagers or a high earner (who will possibly be self employed and not entitled to certain state pension rights on retirement unless they make their own contributions? where is the how many minium wagers can afford to put money aside for their pension? i refered to this tosh about it being discrmination. i explained why it is not. maybe knowing what makes illegal discrmination would be a start.

It is obvious that the whole concept of active citizenship eludes you. When you do find the time (from making tea, that is) try and educate yourself with a bit more info from here


http://www.activecitizenship.ie/UPLOADE ... %2007).pdf


Now, since your constricted notion of citizenship hangs solely on earning power, what do you say we do to the legion of chronic social welfare recipients among the non immigrant population? May be put hem on a ship and send them off somewhere nice, like a very familiar scenario in some historical past?

by the way, someone referred to the cash for passport lark, lovely, you would swear that ye were actually in the country to have a bloody clue what ye are talking about.

That exactly is the problem with people who make generalized assumptions like yourself. Dude you have no Idea who is who and who has been where around here. BTW, I didn't realize that particularly funny episode was meant to be kept locked up in the Irish book of untold secrets, safe and hidden from posterity. If only they knew how much damage information technology could do back then. What's more funny is that even a supposedly good student of history like yourself must either have a short memory or outrightly naive to be taking such a potentially volatile position on the issue of citizenship given the historical context that such position might be put.

you also swear that no other country ever did it. that scheme, by the way had potential and was screwed by one or two scum bags who are not capable of complyng with the laws of another country (not ireland) it was a novel scheme in order to try and encourage the money men to come to ireland in the 1980's to invest in the country. the problem, it was not granted by an independent body.

Of course in the country where different variants of the scheme exists. They exists with clear cut openness and well established process and those who are eligible to apply through such process know what they are into. What do we have here: a winky winky process (to quote fattypatty) one that is neither structured nor transparent.

[leinster]

hi guys,

I know a guy who got his citizenship aaproved while he was still banned for driving cos of drink drive.

Did he appeal the ban or is appeal pending?

did this occur before or after making the application?

can you actually substantiate this? If so, can you get him to help ye? go to a solicitor / ngo and speak with them

no he did not appeal or anything infact he was still serving the ban while he got his citizenship and he was actually convicted after his application but would like to mention that his and his wife's status in the country was on basis of Ibc (irish born child) but still very strange if we think about this and the refusal over penalty points.

[Monifé]

Of course it's a bit more fancy to sit in a solicitor's office even if all you do is make tea for the solicitor and his clients while spending the rest of the day making pejorative remarks about immigrants on public forums.

You should look up the term Legal Executive, they are almost on par with a solicitor in terms of work and legal knowledge, perhaps you are thinking of legal secretary, which wouldn't make the tea either, unless they were a junior assistant of some sort.

[walrusgumble]

@Walrusgumble:

For someone with penchant for jumping on high horses and making pejorative remarks about others, you don't seem to cope well with taking a dose of your own medicine do you? SMH, but that's besides the point. Let see what we have here:

excuse me, but please point out where i have or do say i am part of the legal profession?. i am not, nor ever have or ever will be. so get your facts straight!.

So, when next you're filling out a profile info on a public forum you may want to be sure put in the right info re what you do or better still leave it blank.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/profil ... 9c8460eeb9

You know what,you are right you are not part of the legal profession. You are more like a glorified paper pusher for a solicitor

http://www.irishinstituteoflegalexecuti ... mbers.html

(now i think Irish Tom was actually right about the whole 'Tea boy' thingy). To think you have the audacity to come here and discount the contributions of many hard working immigrants on the basis of their earnings. What you and the the likes of you fail to get is that these people do these jobs because these were the jobs that native Irish people refused to do. Of course it's a bit more fancy to sit in a solicitor's office even if all you do is make tea for the solicitor and his clients while spending the rest of the day making pejorative remarks about immigrants on public forums.

by all means please don't reply to any post. because you are not capable of telling the difference between a posters opinion and a statement of fact and or the crystal clear message that the department of justice is giving. nor can you seem to note saracism, and cycnism towards the government.

who do you think is likely to rely on welfare in the future, minimum wagers or a high earner (who will possibly be self employed and not entitled to certain state pension rights on retirement unless they make their own contributions? where is the how many minium wagers can afford to put money aside for their pension? i refered to this tosh about it being discrmination. i explained why it is not. maybe knowing what makes illegal discrmination would be a start.

It is obvious that the whole concept of active citizenship eludes you. When you do find the time (from making tea, that is) try and educate yourself with a bit more info from here


http://www.activecitizenship.ie/UPLOADE ... %2007).pdf


Now, since your constricted notion of citizenship hangs solely on earning power, what do you say we do to the legion of chronic social welfare recipients among the non immigrant population? May be put hem on a ship and send them off somewhere nice, like a very familiar scenario in some historical past?

by the way, someone referred to the cash for passport lark, lovely, you would swear that ye were actually in the country to have a bloody clue what ye are talking about.

That exactly is the problem with people who make generalized assumptions like yourself. Dude you have no Idea who is who and who has been where around here. BTW, I didn't realize that particularly funny episode was meant to be kept locked up in the Irish book of untold secrets, safe and hidden from posterity. If only they knew how much damage information technology could do back then. What's more funny is that even a supposedly good student of history like yourself must either have a short memory or outrightly naive to be taking such a potentially volatile position on the issue of citizenship given the historical context that such position might be put.

you also swear that no other country ever did it. that scheme, by the way had potential and was screwed by one or two scum bags who are not capable of complyng with the laws of another country (not ireland) it was a novel scheme in order to try and encourage the money men to come to ireland in the 1980's to invest in the country. the problem, it was not granted by an independent body.

Of course in the country where different variants of the scheme exists. They exists with clear cut openness and well established process and those who are eligible to apply through such process know what they are into. What do we have here: a winky winky process (to quote fattypatty) one that is neither structured nor transparent.

First off, jumping on the high horses. No it is a case of pointing out a few home truths to ye. Ye don't like them, well, though, crying about it won't change the Minister's point of view, nor, many Irish citizens attitude. All most people do here is complain and act the victim. It is no different to other countries, and more to the point, if you compare your country with this, it would be more interesting to see how liberal either is to your problems.

The difference is, at least I can read what has been said by other posters. You can't when reading mine. If you are going to quote me, do it right.

Secondly, as i pointed out before, in another post, legal executives and solicitors are employed in other areas of industry, not just a solicitors office!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have already stated before, that i have worked in various departments including justice (though not immigration) and education. So again, i will make clear, i have never worked in a legal practice before. Thankfully, I can say I got out of there and I can say that I am self employed and still busy, working and still doing ok. Unlike you, i have no one to answer too, bar wife, bank and clients. So maybe you should go back to work and get your facts straight . however, thanks for reminding me though, that profile has not be updated for about 3 years, forgot all about it.

However, i do take great exception to your remarks about legal executives, and its says a bit about your intelligence. Many people, such as my sister and friends, before entering law school ,whether solicitors or barristers will work as legal executives/assistants. my sister did this before qualifying. I were you I would actually enquire as to what actualy is entailed for legal executives. tea maker aint one of them. I would also wager that in many busy legal firms it is the legal executive or assitant who you will see more of than the solicitor. I dare you make comments like that when be told honest straight up facts which you conveniently do not like. you would be out the door faster than you came in.

As for the active citizenship, as someone who is involved in community projects on a voluntary basis and irish language associations (which by the way i can confirm many immigrants are involved in) I don't need and won't take any lectures from an non national as to active citizenship. particularly from some (possibly not you) who are doing nothing for their own country (eg sending money home)

As for that site you refer to, are they still going? and being funded? look at the personale. What were they doing to assist the widening gap between the rich and poor in the past? Its all well for them to lecture when they are comfortably tucked away from real life? TD's , priests, and well meaning people on cushy numbers in semi state agencies. will they or have they agreed to get reducation in salary and pension rights?

I don't know if you are naive, but there is a small group of people, like my self, that never take a politican's word of aspirations, promises etc seriously until they deliver. can you say most of that report has been implemented? or will be? (i am not trying to be disrespectful)

I never said immigrants were not hard workers.

you and others should not think that just because you are on public sites that you can slag off this country without looking at your own country and how it treats their own immigrants. you should not also think that you won't be challenged or asked to make account for their comments. Everytime, funny enough i ask people, they always avoid it. what's wrong, burning issue? how many would not have problems with family reunification in their own country (take away fact that if they go now, they would be exercising eu rights ala singh) when they can't do it, they turn to be the victim. jesus, even if i was a tea boy, must look pretty bad being taken to the cleaners in a discussion, wouldn't you say (not you btw in this context)

I have seen on number of occassions comparision with fianna fail and zanu pf wtf. completetly retarded and unfounded comments that only for the immigrant we would not have the boom (see other posts) that the irish are arrogant in that they won't do other lower jobs - pointer, they were probably already working. This was challenged by me, and variosu degrees of success.


IRish tom ,is no more than a lout, who is qucikly shutted up when proper argument and evidence is put to him and when he is forced to rely on other sources than just populist and sensationalist media.


Citizenship on basis of money, sorry you should be saying Naturalisation. What is your point, may I ask? You honestly think long term welfare claimants should be granted citizenship IN ADDITION to continued permission to reside. unless very exceptional circumstances, I don't. It is also clear that the department of justice does so as well. Once they get citizenship, then, that is a different story! then what you were saying about active citizenship might be relevant.

Comparing Irish born citizens and candidates for citizenship are two different classes. so why compare. the former can't be deported from their own country

[walrusgumble]

Of course it's a bit more fancy to sit in a solicitor's office even if all you do is make tea for the solicitor and his clients while spending the rest of the day making pejorative remarks about immigrants on public forums.[/quot
You should look up the term Legal Executive, they are almost on par with a solicitor in terms of work and legal knowledge, perhaps you are thinking of legal secretary, which wouldn't make the tea either, unless they were a junior assistant of some sort.

9eirean

thanks for pointing out the fact that i need to update my profile of something like 3 years ago. It would not hurt to actually read that website you referred to because you are sounding like an idiot. By the way, if you actually read my previous posts, you will also be aware that legal executives don't just work in solicitor offices. I have on a number of occassions pointed out that I have worked in various units in various departments like department of justice (probabtion) and education. dealing in those areas meant coming across non nationals who have some similar problems like you (IBC at the time)

I left all that. I am self employed, still doing ok .

Funny enough, there is absolutely nothing that you have done to give counter argument to any points raised by me. I must say, I have nothing but the uptmost respect for patty, at least he / she makes an attempt. stick to what i am actually saying if you wish to comment.

[walrusgumble]

Anyway, it occurred to me, that for those who got penalised soley for lousy penalty points (with no court appearance)

there is absolutely nothing in the application form that tells you that you must disclose this fact! isn't that unfair procedures. For those who got refused, i would not take that lying down. speak to a lawyer or legal advice office

[fatty patty]

Anyway, it occurred to me, that for those who got penalised soley for lousy penalty points (with no court appearance)

there is absolutely nothing in the application form that tells you that you must disclose this fact! isn't that unfair procedures. For those who got refused, i would not take that lying down. speak to a lawyer or legal advice office

This is the root of the problem that minister cannot be taken to court over refusing someone citizenship, cases gets thrown out or don't pass preliminary stage / clearance (whatever you call it in legal terms) because judges agreeing with the minister's discretion lark. You have a user just above stating that he knows someone who got approved being convicted of drink driving. This is why i am keep harping that this naturalisation system is discrimnatory! So for e.g. tommorow your non-eu spouse or a person on permit gets refused he/she would never know what was refual for. Hope you get it now.

And as far as calling Ireland "Eire" is concern, I will call whatever I like (Irlandia, Irlanda, Irsko, Irska, Irlanti, Irija, Irlande, banana republic, leprechaun land) tough cookies for you! We live in a free society don't we? And no i haven't got a slap across the face in pubs calling Ireland Eire infact people tend to like it. Dont know which pub yous are hanging out.