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THE GUYZ IN JUSTICE ARE MORE STUPID THAT I THOUGHT.

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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MYSPACE
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THE GUYZ IN JUSTICE ARE MORE STUPID THAT I THOUGHT.

Post by MYSPACE » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:30 pm

My friend EU1 application was refused..also this review was refused too, on the ground read as fellows:

The decision to refuse your application is affirmed for the following reasons.

Its noted that you supplied documentation to show tha your wife is employed with[ASTRA SALES PROMOTIONS LTD]And have provided one payslip to that effect as well as a letter from this employer.having considered this evidence the minister considers that this employment is purely marginal and ancillary and does not represent a geniune and effective exercise of EU Treaty rights in the state within the meaning of regulation6[2] of the regulations.You, therefore,do not have the right to reside in the state.

The decision to refuse you a resident card for a family member of a union citizen does not interfere with any rights which you may have under the constitution or article 8 of the European convention on human rights.in any subsequent proposed decision where such inerfererence may arise,please note that full proper consideration will be given to these rights.
The review of your EU Treaty rights application is now closed.According to the records of the INIS you have no current legal immigration status in the state.your file has been referred to the removals unit for consideration under regulation 20 of the regulations.

Please any advice on way forward for him?
Wife has a geniune 16 hrs work per week...

Thanx Guys.
Last edited by MYSPACE on Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

walrusgumble
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Re: Eu 1 application under review was refused.

Post by walrusgumble » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:24 pm

MYSPACE wrote:My friend EU1 application was refused..also this review was refused too, on the ground that wife EU citizen work only 16hours per week...My friend is non Eu...

Please any advice on the way forward for him?

Thanx Guys.
Get that reviewed by a lawyer immediately!. It goes completely against the old ECJ caselaw!!! Cases that involved little hours and cases involved little monetary pay eg piano tutiton

16 hours work is still work, of economic value. what does spouse do other than that? studying?

daddy
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my space, refusal

Post by daddy » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:54 am

Could you inform us of the full wordings of his refusal letter as it wouldd be necessary for a better advice in this regard.

fatty patty
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Post by fatty patty » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:51 pm

If it is 16 hours a week work i think one can still claim social welfare? What i mean is if I work 3 days a week I can claim social for other 2/3 days. Not that i am suggesting there is social claim in your case but as daddy puts it full detail will help clear the picture.

MYSPACE
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Post by MYSPACE » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:08 pm

Guyz please underline the word..{MARGINAL} that means "something unimportant" ... and the word {ANCILLARY} that mean" helping in a subsidiary way" all in all, Justice are saying YES she's working..but her work is not enough, so there for is less important and less significant to grand husband residency card...

This guyz are more stupid that i thought..

Irisheddy
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Good news

Post by Irisheddy » Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:49 pm

There will soon be a new government so that should solve the problem

walrusgumble
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Re: Good news

Post by walrusgumble » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:25 pm

Irisheddy wrote:There will soon be a new government so that should solve the problem
really? maybe shatter and durkan. fine gael are more pro european. but who remembers vardakr (son of an immigrant) suggesting paying non nationals to go home?

it does not really matter who now comes into power, they will be unpopular with all the cuts etc. fine gael promised an immigration minister (like most countries) yet never went through with even selecting something akin to a shadow minister - though there was denis naughton as integration spokesman

so how, i do hope i am wrong, immigration will be the least on their mind.

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:29 pm

MYSPACE wrote:Guyz please underline the word..{MARGINAL} that means "something unimportant" ... and the word {ANCILLARY} that mean" helping in a subsidiary way" all in all, Justice are saying YES she's working..but her work is not enough, so there for is less important and less significant to grand husband residency card...

This guyz are more stupid that i thought..

someone in the department was swoting up on their elementary on eu case law, its so funny, one nearly would cry with embarrassment

the words "ancillary" and "marginal" are/were words used by the ecj in considering the defintion of worker. really old cases that involved countries attempting to remove other eu citizens because they did not work normal full time jobs.

one case, germany i think had fella who lived in a monastary who did caretaker work but got no pay but his food and bed, he won (years ago)

sweet jesus the government are getting desparate and finding mad reasons to say no. mybe they should look at the cases of the past and see how easay it was to show marginal and ancillary. why don't they be more honest and campaign with like minded countries and seek admendments to the case law and rules as oppose to this trite.

seriously, do not let this one lie down, get down to a lawyer
check this out

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?cat ... ageId=1221




D.M. Levin v Staatssecretaris van Justitie, C-53/81, 23 March 1982 In this case the Court explained the concepts of ‘worker’ and ‘activities as an employed person’. These concepts define fundamental freedoms and may not be interpreted restrictively. The rules on the freedom of movement for workers also concern persons who pursue or wish to pursue an activity as an employed person on a part-time basis and who, based on that fact obtain or would obtain only remuneration lower than the minimum guaranteed in this sector. No distinction may be made between those who are satisfied with that income and those who supplement that income. The rules on the free movement of workers cover only the pursuit of effective and genuine activities. Activities which are regarded as purely marginal and ancillary are excluded. The motives of a worker of a Member State seeking employment in another Member State are of no account to his/her right to enter and reside, if he/she pursues or wishes to pursue an effective and genuine activity. (full text)

Elestina Esselina Christina Morson v State of the Netherlands and Head of the Plaatselijke Politie within the meaning of the Vreemdelingenwet; Sweradjie Jhanjan v State of the Netherlands, C-35 and 36/82, 27 October 1982 Nationals of a Member State may only invoke rights of entry and residence if they have already exercised their freedom of movement in order to carry out an economic activity in another Member State.
The Court confirmed that the provisions on the freedom of movement for workers can be invoked only if the case comes within the area to which Union law applies. (full text)

Deborah Lawrie-Blum v Land Baden-Württemberg, C-66/85, 3 July 1986 Free movement of workers is a fundamental freedom of all EU nationals. This case is very important because it confirms that principle and provides a definition of who is a worker. While some Member States argued that the definition of a worker is in accordance with their national law, the Court held that the meaning of the term is a common Union one across the Member States. Any EU national who fills the conditions:
-for a period of time;
-provides services to another person or company;
-is under the direction of another person;
-receives remuneration for those services is a worker and thus entitled to full range of EU freedoms and rights. (full text)

Steven Malcolm Brown v The Secretary of State for Scotland, C-197/86, 21 June 1988 A worker is a person who pursues an activity which is effective and genuine, with the exclusion of activities on such a small scale as to be regarded as purely marginal and ancillary. The essential characteristic of the employment relationship is that for a certain period of time a person performs services for and under the direction of another person in return for which he/she receives remuneration. Union law does not impose any additional conditions for a person to be a worker. Member States cannot unilaterally make the grant of social advantages, as mentioned in Union law, conditional upon the completion of a given period of occupational activity.
A grant awarded for maintenance and for training with a view to the pursuit of university studies, leading to a professional qualification constitutes a social advantage within the meaning of Union law. A national of another Member State who has undertaken university studies in the host State leading to a professional qualification, after having engaged in occupational activity in that State, must be regarded as having kept his/her status as a worker, provided that there is a link between the previous occupational activity and the studies. If it is established that the worker has acquired his/her status exclusively as a result of being accepted for admission to university to undertake the studies, this national will not be entitled to a grant for studies in another Member State. (full text)

The Queen v Immigration Appeal Tribunal, ex parte Gustaff Desiderius Antonissen, C-292/89, 26 February 1991 This case is important, as the Court discussed the freedom of movement of workers and the right of residence of persons who seek employment. The free movement of workers includes the right for nationals of Member States to seek employment in another Member State. However, this can be subject to temporal limitation. After six months, the person may be required to leave the Member State, unless he/she provides evidence that he/she is continuing to seek employment and that he/she has genuine a chance of finding employment. (full text)

V.J.M. Raulin v Minister van Onderwijs en Wetenschappen, C-357/89, 26 February 1992 Retention of the status of worker, by a national who leaves his/her employment to pursue full-time studies, is conditional on there being a link between the occupational activities previously pursued in the host Member State and the studies undertaken. There is an exception for migrant workers who have involuntarily become unemployed and are obliged by conditions within the labour market to undergo vocational retraining in another field of activity.
Students from another Member State have the right to the same treatment as is accorded to students who are nationals of the host Member State with regard to any assistance intended to cover enrolment fees or other costs, relating to access to education. They cannot claim assistance for maintenance costs. (full text)

M.J.E. Bernini v Minister van Onderwijs en Wetenschappen, C-3/90, 26 February 1992 A person engaged in preparatory training in the course of occupational training must be regarded as a worker if the training period is completed under the same conditions of genuine and effective activity as an employed person. This cannot be invalidated by the fact that the productivity of the trainee is low, that he/she works only a small number of hours per week and receives limited remuneration.
Assistance granted for maintenance and education in order to pursue university studies evidenced by a professional qualification constitutes for the student who benefits a social advantage within the meaning of Union law. In order to retain the status of worker, there has to be a relationship between the previous occupational activity and the studies undertaken. (full text)

Andrea Raccanelli v Max-Planck-Gesellschaft zur Förderung der Wissenschaften eV., C-94/07, 17 July 2008 The Court ruled that a researcher preparing a doctoral thesis on the basis of a grant contract, must be regarded as a worker according to Union law, if his/her activities are performed for a certain period of time under the direction of an institute forming part of an organisation operating in the public interest and he/she receives remuneration, in return for those activities. The Court confirmed that a private-law association must observe the non-discrimination principle in relation to workers within the meaning of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. (full text)

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Post by Obie » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:03 am

OP, i believe the department is wrong to refuse on the basis that a 16 hours a week employment is not genuine and marginal in nature.

See the ECJ Jurisprudence.

R. H. Kempf v Staatssecretaris van Justitie



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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:56 am

What is the nature of the wife's work? Is it real work? Is there anything unusual about it?

Has the EU citizen also received a letter that they will be removed from Ireland? They can't kick one family member out without the EU citizen also being kicked out, especially not on these grounds. This makes the whole thing a lot more interesting!

I would suggest immediately contacting Solvit if you have not already. http://eumovement.wordpress.com/help-eu-solvit/

I would likely tend to resubmit the application, pointing out the case law in case DOJ does not happen to be aware of it.
Last edited by Directive/2004/38/EC on Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:40 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:What is the nature of the wife's work? Is it real work? Is there anything unusual about it?

Has the EU citizen also received a letter that they will be removed from Ireland? They can't kick one family without the EU citizen also being kicked out, especially not on these grounds. This makes the whole thing a lot more interesting!

I would suggest immediately contacting Solvit if you have not already. http://eumovement.wordpress.com/help-eu-solvit/

I would likely tend to resubmit the application, pointing out the case law in case DOJ does not happen to be aware of it.
THey are aware of it, that is what is scary

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Post by koded » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:09 am

I dont think they care abou the law anymore. they are just frustrated about their job and can give any reason while refusing your application.
As someone suggested let the person get a lawyer and I hope your lawyer could be good to take the matter to court immediately.
Also, I think they look at the couple's nationality before making a decision.
It is really bad what some people go through in making RC application in Ireland. Not minding that it takes them six months before they can reach decision which may come negative without no good reason.
Well, hope someday it will change or INIS will be made to pay a fine for refusing application for no good reason.
In the last letter of his refusal letter they mentioned about transfering his application to removal unit. I thought spouse of eu citizen can only be removed on public policy or health policy related cases.

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Post by Irisheddy » Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:53 pm

Those civil servants seem to love being as bureaucratic as possible even if they are wrong. It seems that they get great delight in being un cooperative first and then bending the law to suit their argument. It is the same throughout the civil service in Ireland.e.g Tax, Social Welfare etc

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