Just a Question

[advice_needed]

Hello All,

This is my question. I am visiting the UK soon an a visitor visa. I am not planning on returning to the US. I am not very close to my family and over the few years my boyfriend (who is a British Citizen) and his family have been the closing thing to a family I have ever had. The plan was to come to the UK on a 6 month visitor visa (which will be the longest I have ever stayed in the UK, I have gone there 6 times since we started dating but I normally only stay for a few weeks or 3 months the longest). We want to get married and stay as a married couple for a few months (until the visa is expired) then go into Ireland and apply for the Settlement Visa.

I know, that everyone is going to say to apply for the Fiancee Visa in the US then come to the UK and get married. But, finances are not going to allow this. At present. I have money saved in the bank enough to support this trip but, my fiancee is unemployed and collecting benefits from the government. This is not because he is lazy but, because a few months ago he was granted custody of his daughter. His family can not help because everyone is working a full time job, some or even working 2 full time jobs.

Our plan was for me to come watch his daughter during the day while he works. And he will get a job, the company his friend works for has an open position for his in the company once he can handle child care. He is a qualified electrician. Get a bigger a house, cause now he is living in a 1 bedroom city council flat. We agreed that we will not touch my savings cause we will need that to pay for the settlement visa and get a bigger house, plus we want to use the bank statement to show that we will not need to use public funds.

In our minds we have it all mapped out. Get married, move into a bigger house before the 6 months are up and then go to Ireland for 2 or 3 months. By, then finances will be better and we have a better chance of being approved. I read and re-read the UKBA website and it does not say that I have to be a resident of the country I apply for the settlement but, I have to apply outside of the country.

So, my question is- is it possible to apply for the settlement visa in Ireland? I know that this sounds bizarre and crazy but, it is the only chance I have. I recently was laid off from my job that I was working at just to pay for this move. And at present, I am using my saved money here to pay bills and get by. If, I continue to stay here and hope for the situation to get better for my boyfriend I will not have any money to even pay for my ticket to the UK. We, have weighed out the options and this sounds to be the best. On my last trip to the UK, we visited Ireland and they stamped in my passport that I can stay for up to 3 months. So, I know that I can get into Ireland. It is the cheapest way to go about this situation. I just need advice on if it will or will not work!

Thanks for everything!

[MPH80]

The small fly in the ointment is the requirement for a certificate of approval.

You will have to apply to the home office for this - and this can takes months to get. It is *supposed* to be removed soon - but we would have expected to hear by now what's happening.

I also don't buy the finances argument. If you are going to come for a 6 month visit - you're going to need to show sufficient funds (and you can't claim your employment as they'll have to provide a 6 months leave letter), or your partner is going to have to show he can sponsor you, but you say you don't have the funds for a £700 visa and your savings to support you for a few months.

Either way - whether it's a fiancee visa or a visitor visa - you're going to have to show the funds.

You are also going to be in breach of being a general visitor if you intend to marry during your visit:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/polic ... les/part2/

Turning up, instantly applying for a COA and then getting married would definitely be considered that you told a lie at the border - which would then count against you when you apply for your visa in Ireland.

However, as stated here, the visa has to be applied from *where you live*:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/partn ... utside-uk/

You might be able to do it from Ireland - but you'll be lucky I guess.

Good luck - but I think your plan has many many holes and probably won't work at some point. I'd go back to the drawing board, let him get the job, find some paid childcare, and consider the fiancee visa.

M.

[advice_needed]

Thanks MPH80,

I hear what you are saying and those were my same concerns.

He assured me that one of his buddies an Indian fellow had married his Indian girlfriend via a COA while she was visiting for a few months. But, I guess their circumstances were different since the girl had no clue she was being proposed to until she got to the UK. They supposedly waited 4 months before the COA came. I know the girl met her a few times she now lives in the UK and they have a 2 year old son together. But, they went back to India together to apply for her Settlement Visa. Since he works for his family business he had proof of finances. But, he told him that we would be able to get married with a COA just have to make the Home Office think that I was surprised with the proposal.

I am not the best of liars and my boyfriend knows this, but, he told me I will be fine just think about the big picture (us being together).

About the finances, I have saved up money for over a year now, we were planning to get the Fiancee Visa after he finished school but, his daughter's mother just left her and never cam back so that plan went out the window when he was not able to take the job he was offered. Let me rephrase this, I myself have enough money saved in my bank account here to prove that I can take care of myself for 6 months. I was laid off of my job 2 months back and have been dipping in my saving to pay rent, I even cut back on some of my bills (like now I only have basic cable and no house phone). I don't want to continue to dip cause I know that the money will continue to dwindle until there is only a little left. If, I decided to apply for the Fiancee Visa due to his lack of employment, he is collection public funds and his house can not accommodate us all by Boarder standards we will be denied and the money is non-refundable so I am out of $1200.

But, to bring it back to the question. I am with you, I am having doubts about applying in Ireland. His, thing is if we are renting a house and can show that we are paying bills and have a mailing address in Ireland then we can apply cause technically but, not permanently I will be "living" in Ireland. A few years ago we had went to Kenya and lived there for a few months, we were volunteering at a NGO. I don't know the is all a lot and it does has a lot of holes. But, in order for me to come to the UK for him to get a job I will have to give up my house. So, I will have no where to come back to in the US. My mother died when I was younger and I never knew my dad and my grandmother who raised me is now living in a Senior Resident Home. So, I can't come back and stay with her. The issue he is having with child care is that he can not afford to pay until he gets his first check. The only job that the jobseeker thing is giving him is 12 hours from 6 pm to 6 am and their is no one to keep his daughter during those hours. His mother is a nurse and works for 8 pm to 7 am.

This is a big mess and the original plan we had is now out the window. I want to be with him cause I love him and for 3 years we have been trying to make "this" work with the distance. I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your honest outlook on the situation. All, I can do I guess is cross my fingers and hope for the best!

Thanks MPH80 you have given me a lot to think of!

[MPH80]

The problem is - to qualify as a visitor you have to have reasons to go back ... so if you give up your house ... only have small amounts of savings ... you won't qualify.

You need to think about this very carefully - you could end up back on a plane from the border. It is *not* a given that you will be let in - especially if you say you are here for 6 months.

M.

[advice_needed]

Thanks again MPH80,

I never thought about that one. I thought that I could just go and show the bank statement. I will have had $12,000 saved once I got to the UK and since I was staying with him and not paying bill, I figured it would have been sufficient.

I already have the ticket and I am flying out on the 21 December. I really would hate to have spent all that money. Coming to England I was actually going to be in breach of breaking my lease. I renewed it for a year 3 months ago. Could, I not just bring a copy of the new lease and show that I still have a place to live in the UK cause I have an commitment to my rental agent? All this deceit is really driving me crazy cause in normal situations I am a good person. I pay my taxes, follow the law and respect others. I think being in love has clouded my judgement.

Thank you for bringing out the flaws, it is opening my eyes. But, my heart honestly wants to be with him. He accepts me even, though I am 26, I can't have kids (a hysterectomy a year ago) and he accepts that cause he has his daughter and I love her as my own. I love his whole family and they make me feel like family. I just don't know what to do. But, you are right I have to look into this more.

Thanks so much MPH80 cause being turned away at the airport on arrival would be a bit to much to grasp.

[Casa]

You also need to bear in mind that when you apply for the settlement visa your husband will have to submit at least 3 months bank statements + pay slips showing that you have a minimum of £102.75 + £65 for the child remaining weekly after rent, council tax and any loan repayments have been paid. How are you going to do this if you are applying from Ireland?
You've been given good advice regarding the risk of being 'bumped' on entry into the UK if you can't show strong evidence of a reason to return to the US. Immigration officers are wise to partners entering on the pretence of visiting when the intention is to settle here. A lease agreement is unlikely to be sufficient. The entry officer will be looking for property ownership, a letter from your employer confirming you will be returning to your job, evidence of continuing education (college, University) or strong family ties.
You mention 'school'. Are you both over 21?

[MPH80]

I need to follow up on this ... let's say you come here in January.

He starts his job a week later. He's paid a half salary at the end of Jan ... so that won't do much ... his first full pay will be at the end of Feb. Now, you need to find a month and a half rent for the house you're going to rent ... so that takes a couple of months to build in savings. So you're going to be living in that small council house for a few months. But the rental agency are going to require a credit check and references on him and you (if you're going to be living in the property).

We're now into March/April. Meanwhile - you applied for that COA in Jan ... it hasn't come through yet cos of a delay. It appears end of April ... you give notice to the registrar ... that means a two week wait. So we're mid may at the earliest before you can marry.

Now - you marry - and you decide you're going to Ireland for a bit - now you're renting TWO houses because you need that address in Ireland - and it has to be near Dublin because that's where the consulate is. He has to be away from his job while he sorts it all out. But he still doesn't have more than 3-4 months pay slips to prove he can support you and You still need to find that £700 for the spouse visa.

Of course, before you can rent the house in Ireland - you're going to need to stay in a hotel until you can get setup - that's more money down the drain.

I just can't see this plan holding together. So many places it could go horribly wrong.

My suggestion: Send him the money for up front childcare. Find yourself a new job. Let him get the job, get some pay in the bank, move into rented property and sort it out. You've waited this long - you can wait 6 more months, do it properly and be guaranteed to be together.

M.

[MPH80]

Note: just seen that you'll have $12,000 in savings. I make that around £7,500.

That is a good amount for a visitor visa. The same questions are going to remain for the ECO ... why is she coming ... why 6 months ... she's been here a lot ... where's she staying ... is she *really* a genuine visitor? If they don't believe you will leave at the end of your stay - you'll be back on a plane.

I do think the plan looks more stable with that money behind you because you'll have the funds to find the rental property etc - but there are still a lot of places this can go wrong - example: what happens if the checks fail at the rental agency? what happens if he doesn't have enough pay slips/bank statements at the time of the spouse visa?

I *still* think the right thing to do is to not go anywhere for the moment - send him some cash to sort out paid childcare and get yourself a new job to keep busy for a few months. Let him sort out the housing, then come over and get married properly.

M.

[advice_needed]

Casa,

I know, I am really taking into consideration of MPH80. I really appreciate it. My boyfriend does not on planning on moving to Ireland with me, but, he likes me being close enough that he can come during the weekend and spend a few days with me. Plus, he will be in England alone cause I plan on taking his daughter with me since I will be caring for her.

As for strong family ties, I don't have that just my grandmother who is 82 and living in a Senior Home....I am over 21, I am 26 graduated 4 years ago. So, nope, school is out of the question. But, I hear what you are all saying and I want to thank you also Casa.

MPH80,

We planned on staying at his flat and save money. We planned on getting the bigger house once I was in Ireland. He is intending on still working but, since he will have weekends off he is planning on coming to Ireland to spend that time with his daughter and I. I will still have the $12,000 that is in my savings so that will be paying for the house in Ireland and the Settlement Visa.

He actually has a cousin who is working in Ireland and I intended to stay with her until I could find a house. But, we were banking on not longer than a week since she only has a 1 bedroom flat.

But, you are right, it might be better just to send him the money for childcare. I put in applications for other jobs after I was laid off but, because of the economy here no one is really hiring. The one job that I was offered was Assisted Manager at Family Dollars and all they were offering was $7.65 an hour part time. Which would not have even been enough for my rent. I live in a small town outside of Atlanta and their is really not to many places to work. The only thing I can do is make the 40 minute drive into Atlanta but, then again that is more money in gas.

But, you are right, I might just end up sending the money for the childcare and let it go from there. Will talk to him about it when he calls.

[Casa]

Is your boyfriend also over 21? Sorry...need to check.

[advice_needed]

No problem Casa, he is also over 21. He is 28. After he finished school at 18 he decided that school wasn't for him anymore. It wasn't until his daughter was born that he decided to go and get a certificate or diploma in something.

In all honesty, he just wants to know if it would have been possible to get the Spousal Visa in Ireland. I just got off the phone with him and he is saying since the ticket is already paid for to not come is a waste.

I still agree with you and MPH80 but, now he is saying to me that I should have come here before I purchased the ticket. Which he is right about! I agree with you both. But, he is telling me to inquire if by some chance I get into the country is it possible to apply for the Spousal Visa in Ireland.

Thanks so much for the advice. I wish I did not buy the tickets before getting this advice!

[MPH80]

The theory says that you should apply from where you live (as per the link above) and it's been my understanding that you have to return to your country of residence to apply.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

Look here in section 7 - it explains you should apply from where you are living and provides a definition (e.g. you aren't a short term visitor).

It also says they have a degree of flexibility in how they apply the rules. So we can't be certain.

I personally think that it's a risk and I think it's more likely to be enforced if it's 'easy' for someone to go home (e.g. it's safe ... no danger for them etc).

M.

[SSEF]

On a positive: To MPH80.... if one or both are Roman Catholic they do not need approval to marry - they can get married in Catholic Church (Eire is a Catholic country so no prob finding a Church get married in!).

Can I say Im shocked at the $7.36 the OP was offered, isnt that circa. £4.00 an hour?

Has the OP thought of maybe setting up a small company selling to ex-pats? or eBay or amazon? This might generate money and show a tie to the US..

Negative Point: Americans without substantial means seem to be a target these days..So I would advise the OP to have a water tight case or waite until things are better for both parties..

In the mean time your partner could apply for a council nursery place, these are heavily subsidised (a friend of mine only paid circa. £30 per week 7 years ago when she was completing her degree after her husband buggered off back to Greece!) they open working hours, the rest his family could cover...There are ways..

Good luck chick!

[Casa]

You can also marry in the UK in an Anglican church (C of E) without a COA if you can find a vicar willing to perform the ceremony. Still doesn't get over the fact that you would have to apply for the spouse visa outside of the UK.

[MPH80]

You can also marry in the UK in an Anglican church (C of E) without a COA if you can find a vicar willing to perform the ceremony.

Also - since the recent scandal of the vicar who was accused of conducting sham marriages for visas (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-10687114) I believe the vicars have got a bit more suspicious of those who are marrying to get around COA/visa rules.

You are also generally required to accquire a special license from the local bishop unless banns can be read. But I don't think these are hard to get - just time consuming.

if one or both are Roman Catholic they do not need approval to marry - they can get married in Catholic Church (Eire is a Catholic country so no prob finding a Church get married in!)

Possibly - I don't know the Irish rules on marriage rights.

I recall from my own investigation into this that you do require permission from the bishop if it's a non-catholic with a catholic (which was our reason for going CofE) but I think this is rarely refused.

Still doesn't get over the fact that you would have to apply for the spouse visa outside of the UK

Indeed.

[advice_needed]

M, thanks you keep on opening my eyes. I am seeing that I will have to return home after the 6 months. My boyfriend and I have come to this conclusion since the ticket is paid for, for 6 months. It makes no since to cancel the ticket, because it is non-refundable so I will lose out on that money. We, don't want problems at the airport so I will take the $200 penalty and change my return flight to 2 weeks. So, it looks like I am coming into the country on two weeks. Since, neither one of us are practicing Roman Catholics and since he hasn't been in a church since he was about 10. I doubt that any church in the UK will marry us. So, the COA is a better choice. His new theory is that we can always say, I had no idea he was going to propose and we want to get married before I leave. Since, we know that we cannot get an extension or change a visitor visa I know that I will have to leave the country and return home. Where, once I leave I will have no where to return to. Since, I have no family but my grandmother. But, since we are going to try and prioritize the spousal visa. I will only be there for hopefully a few weeks to a month and I can stay at a friends house for that time. Cause, together we can't think of any country will I will be considered as a long term visitor or something. But, Kenya, where we both volunteered years ago. The rent there is cheaper and the price of the flight from the UK to Kenya is cheaper than coming back to the States. I can stay there for up to 6 months on what is called a "General Visitor Visa" but, that may be considered as a "short term visa" in the UK. I don't know this is so confusing and the UK makes it so hard.

But, thank you all for your help especially you MPH80 cause even though you think that I should stay here and do it the fiancee visa way, you keep on giving options on other ideas and your opinion is greatly appreciated. It is almost like you know what I am going through, thank you so much.

Casa and thank you also, you are great, I wish we were both more religious. Well, him, at least I do get to a service here twice a month, LOL.
You all have been great!

[Casa]

Slight snag. You aren't going to get a COA in 2 weeks. You both need to be in the UK to apply. You'll need a fiancee visa.

[advice_needed]

See, that is the thing, I don't intend on staying in the country for the 2 weeks. I intend on staying in the country for the 6 months. I know that it is possible cause they never stamp in your passport 2 weeks. They always stamp "LEAVE TO ENTER FOR SIX MONTHS: EMPLOYMENT AND RECOURSE TO PUBLIC FUND PROHIBITED" then it has the Immigration Officer Number, the day you entered at at which port/terminal. When I went for 3 months, I only intended to stay for 6 weeks but, ended up staying the 3 months cause of a death in his family. I never went to the Home Office to extend my stay cause when I called to inquire the woman who answered the phone told me that as long as I didn't stay over the 6 months I had no need to extend or change the visa. The change of the visa is so that I won't have any problems when I tell the Immigration Officer that I was staying for 6 months. He would frown upon that and it is a higher chance of me being denied and deported back to the States. 2 weeks is a shorter time frame. I won't have to show that I am planning to return to the States and that I have enough funds. Even though, I am not worried about it. We both just think that it is easier. And then his buddy told him that when we went to apply for the COA it looks like I had no idea we were getting married. This is what he did with his now wife. She came for a short visa and he asked her to marry him. So, she did not come into the country intending to be wed. I know that, we are not the same case, since I know that we want to get married.

I hate lying but, I also hate not being with him and as I mentioned his finances will not deny the visa application. His uncle his is a barrister told me not to go with the fiancee visa. He also said the same stay here and wait for the circumstances to change but, he knows what we are going through and how hard it is on us, to keep up a long distance relationship that is of this distances. On top of that the ticket is paid for. I was going to just cancel the flight but, when I called the airline I was told the ticket is non-refundable so if I did cancel, I lose out on the $1100 on the ticket. The Reservation Agent suggested I just change the ticket for the $200 and since the return ticket is cheaper for only 2 weeks it is really going to be $145 penalty. Now, once I am there we will decide where to go from there. Cause if I do come back to the States, I can't stay in the State that I live in now, I will have to return to Ohio where I have a long time friend who has offered to let me stay at her house if it comes to me returning to the States. But, so far we are worrying about me successfully getting in the country so we can apply for the COA.

[advice_needed]

Sorry about the lengthy messages everyone, I am a journalism major so writing is my thing.....and I tend to write a lot, LOL.....sorry!

[MPH80]

Ok - I think you've set your course.

I'm just going to point out where I see the potential problems are:

1) It's possible the COA won't come through in 6 months (unlikely - but possible) or comes through too late to give notice to the registrar. Remember - the COA confers *no* right to remain in the country.

2) It's possible your partner won't get the job he's promised (or it disappears quickly) and the financial situation won't improve - meantime your savings will have been drained and you can't work - which leads to ...

3) You won't have enough savings built up to be able to afford a) the ticket to the other country or b) the deposit for the rent of the new house (keep in mind that's typically a month and a half deposit + one month rent in advance)

4) You're right that typically visas are given for 6 months on arrival. That is not always the case if the ECO suspects something. There's a show on TV here called 'Border Force' profiling the immigration officers, you do see them giving entry clearance for 2 days or 2 weeks in certain circumstances. But I suspect that's a rare occurance.

My problem is that you don't have a backup plan for those scenarios as you're cutting your ties to the US. I really hope it all goes well for you.

Edit: I don't want to come across unduly negative. The basics of the plan hang together, but I think there are a lot of things that have to come together in the right order to make it work.

M.