British Nationality - How many Indians and why?

[basis]

Does anyone know how many Indians apply for British Citizenship every year ? What proportion compared to total number of applicants / approvals is that of Indians ?

considering India does not allow dual citizenship this number may be low. If not then why do so many Indians apply for BC ? Because most Indians want to go back eventually to India and ILR is sufficient till then.

[rogerroger]

i saw a fair number of indian citizens (& probably pakistanis) at the ceremony.
why do most indians want to go back to india, because india is a booing economy, would the same be true about china?

[ppron747]

Does anyone know how many Indians apply for British Citizenship every year ? What proportion compared to total number of applicants / approvals is that of Indians ?

considering India does not allow dual citizenship this number may be low. If not then why do so many Indians apply for BC ? Because most Indians want to go back eventually to India and ILR is sufficient till then.

Here are the statistics for 2003 and 2004, basis - let us know what conclusion you reach! They were both published in May of the following year, so if the pattern continues, it'll be a few months before the 2005 figures are available.

Your question about the proportion of naturalisations, etc granted to Indian citizens as oppsed to other nationalities doesn't seem to me to be one whose answer is particularly meaningful. Clearly, there are a lot more citizens of Indian living in the UK than, say, citizens of Nauru, so it would be predictable that there would be more Indians naturalised than Nauruans. I think the question should really be "What proportion of Indians living in UK have applied for naturalisation, and how does that compare with applications from citizens of other countries?"

I suspect the answer to that question would be that it is on the low side, compared with applications from citizens of countries with less rigid objections to dual nationality. I'm aware of a number of cases where, with married couples, one spouse applied for British nationality, and the other spouse didn't, so that the family as a whole could keep a foot in each camp. I don't know how widespread this is, and I don't think it would be apparent from the published statistics.

[JAJ]

I think the question should really be "What proportion of Indians living in UK have applied for naturalisation, and how does that compare with applications from citizens of other countries?"

I suspect the answer to that question would be that it is on the low side, compared with applications from citizens of countries with less rigid objections to dual nationality. I'm aware of a number of cases where, with married couples, one spouse applied for British nationality, and the other spouse didn't, so that the family as a whole could keep a foot in each camp. I don't know how widespread this is, and I don't think it would be apparent from the published statistics.

Table 8 in the Home Office publication Persons granted British citizenship has some interesting information on the number of overseas born people (split by region) who are British citizens versus those who are not.

Only those who have lived in the UK for 6 or more years are included in the figures.

[basis]

I think the question should really be "What proportion of Indians living in UK have applied for naturalisation, and how does that compare with applications from citizens of other countries?"

I suspect the answer to that question would be that it is on the low side, compared with applications from citizens of countries with less rigid objections to dual nationality. I'm aware of a number of cases where, with married couples, one spouse applied for British nationality, and the other spouse didn't, so that the family as a whole could keep a foot in each camp. I don't know how widespread this is, and I don't think it would be apparent from the published statistics.

Agreed ppron. You have spelt my question correctly. And the statistics seem useful.

At a very first look - I can see interesting piece of information on page 7 -

12. Figure 7 shows the proportion of overseas born persons who are British citizens once they have been in the UK for six years or more - the earliest at which the majority of migrants would be granted British citizenship4. In addition, Table 8 shows this analysis for those who have been in the UK for between six and ten years, between eleven and twenty years, and twenty-one years or more.

And the conclusions that the 2005 report has drawn are -

13. In 2004, 59 per cent of overseas-born people who had been in the UK for six years or more were British citizens. This rate varied with region of birth and increased with time spent in the UK prior to obtaining citizenship. These rates have remained largely unchanged since 2002.

14. People born in developed countries such as Australia, New Zealand, USA, Canada and EU states were less likely to become British citizens than those born in developing countries in such regions as Africa, Asia and the Middle East.

16. Those born in Africa were more likely than others to become British citizens after residing in the UK for over 20 years (88 per cent compared with, for example, 87 per cent of Indian sub-continent-born people). However, they were more likely to wait before applying – only 32 per cent of African-born people who had been in the UK for between 6 and 10 years were British citizens compared with 40 per cent of Indian subcontinent-born people.

In fact comparatively people from Indian sub-continent rank way high up in naturalisation even in % terms. in fact it leads in all categories - except more than 20 years (where Africa leads by 1 percentage point). And this is with such high volume.

Another intersting thing is that the same table 8 shows maximum number of British Citizens born outside the UK are in India a massive 603000 in 2005.

ppron - What you have said is also correct. there are many families I know of who have taken up BC for only one of spouse. And there is very high number of born BCs (born to 'settled' indian parents). and this number of course would not appear in this report.

[shankarindian]

I have also been wondering exactly the same question that basis has raised - does it make practical sense these days (given how India is widely perceived as a growing economy with a bright future) for Indian citizens with ILR status in the UK to obtain BC via naturalisation if they are really keen on resuming their working life in India at a suitable date in the future? Working in India with BC and OCI card is fine as per rules but there may be bureaucratic problems while operating on the ground in India.

I fully appreciate that everyone's circumstance and needs are different and there is no solution that will fit everyone and at the end of the day, it is somebody's individual decision whether to naturalise or not.

But can the UK government remove somebody's ILR status when the person has been continuously in the UK? I have heard of radical work permit-related changes that are being planned but hopefully they will not affect people who have already obtained ILR a few years ago after several years on workpermit?

Does the company pension contributed during the working life in UK (which will get paid out when one reaches 65 or 60 or sometime around that age) has any bearing on nationality? I.e. will it not get paid if the person is not a BC at the time of reaching retirement age?

[JAJ]

I have also been wondering exactly the same question that basis has raised - does it make practical sense these days (given how India is widely perceived as a growing economy with a bright future) for Indian citizens with ILR status in the UK to obtain BC via naturalisation if they are really keen on resuming their working life in India at a suitable date in the future? Working in India with BC and OCI card is fine as per rules but there may be bureaucratic problems while operating on the ground in India.

I fully appreciate that everyone's circumstance and needs are different and there is no solution that will fit everyone and at the end of the day, it is somebody's individual decision whether to naturalise or not.

The practical reasons to naturalise include:
- stronger identification with the UK compared to India (ie if you see the UK as 'home')
- benefits of a British passport (easy return to the UK, work in other EEA states, easier tourist travel).
- access to nationality restricted Civil Service positions
- immunity from deportation
- have the same nationality as UK born children
- as Commonwealth citizens Indians can already vote and stand for public office, however it would be strange to stand for public office while not being a British citizen.

If you would prefer to remain an Indian citizen and not have these benefits, that is quite possible.

But can the UK government remove somebody's ILR status when the person has been continuously in the UK?

Only on character grounds (ie if you commit crimes).

I have heard of radical work permit-related changes that are being planned but hopefully they will not affect people who have already obtained ILR a few years ago after several years on workpermit?

No they won't.

Does the company pension contributed during the working life in UK (which will get paid out when one reaches 65 or 60 or sometime around that age) has any bearing on nationality? I.e. will it not get paid if the person is not a BC at the time of reaching retirement age?

As far as I know, in the UK pension eligibility is not contingent on citizenship (it is in some other countries though).

[lemess]

I didn't naturalise for a long time after I became eligilbe for some of the reasons. However, once a clear way to visa free employment and residence in India became available, naturalising as a UK citizen was the logical choice. Setting aside considerations of "belonging" etc. ( which are emotive and never possible to settle one or the other), the key issue is that for anyone who has a globally mobile career, a british passport is far more convenient for travel and work. With an indian passport you always have visa hassles for almost any country you may want to visit or work in. That to me was the key reason for biting the bullet.

A UK citizenship with a PIO/OCI card works as a good combination.

[mhunjn]

What makes you think so?... Majority of people I know don't have any plans to do so...

Because most Indians want to go back eventually to India and ILR is sufficient till then.

[basis]

Well many people i know have plans to do so. and go to r2iclub.com and other sites. you will find worldwide (UK, US, Aus, NZ, Canada, europe) etc people of indian origin are on reverse migration. And look at rogerroger's comment - he is even giving reason why people want to move to india. today people of non-Indian origin also want to move to india.

Dude - wake up reality sucks.........

[mhunjn]

You are talking of a significant minority of people, who have had professional education and moved abroad (from India) relatively recently (10 yrs?) for better jobs or for jobs which at that point of time did not exist in India. Sure enough, with all the developments etc, they would want to move back... but then again, a some of them will probably move back abroad when they realise they don't have the benefits etc that they have got used to.

A big majority of people abroad, especially from Northern India migrated in the 40s, 50s. I can't see why they or their next generation would want to move back?... considering their entire social/family life is here.

So, Yes, a lot of Indians abroad want to move back, but they are certainly not the majority.

And, there is a difference is 'wanting' to move back, and, actually moving back.

[tekaweni]

In reply to the original Q asked in this thread - I googled these two links which may interest to you.. and anyone who lives, eats and breathes statistics!

Seems to be a full breakdown of BC grants and refusals by country, age, etc.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/hosb0704.pdf
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/hosb0805.pdf

Take care

[basis]

In reply to the original Q asked in this thread - I googled these two links which may interest to you.. and anyone who lives, eats and breathes statistics!

Seems to be a full breakdown of BC grants and refusals by country, age, etc.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/hosb0704.pdf
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/hosb0805.pdf

Take care

tekaweni - thanks but you hv posted the same links which ppron posted in the third post inthis thread. and the further analysis till now in this thread is based on the same links.

[basis]

You are talking of a significant minority of people, who have had professional education and moved abroad (from India) relatively recently (10 yrs?) for better jobs or for jobs which at that point of time did not exist in India. Sure enough, with all the developments etc, they would want to move back... but then again, a some of them will probably move back abroad when they realise they don't have the benefits etc that they have got used to.

A big majority of people abroad, especially from Northern India migrated in the 40s, 50s. I can't see why they or their next generation would want to move back?... considering their entire social/family life is here.

mhunjn (how do u pronounce this ??) - Significant and minority ??? Anyways - if you look at my original post my question is 'Does anyone know how many Indians apply for British Citizenship every year ?'. So this question is not abt people who came here in 40 or 50. this is abt current applicants. Consdering over 85% people who have stayed in the UK for 20 or more yrs are naturalised....I am referring to new aplicants - obviously most of them are who have completed somewhere between 5 to 10 years. Very rarely people wait for more than that to apply for naturalisation in the UK. And obviously I am referring to the professionals - non-professionals in india will not get anywhere near the life standard that they get in developed countries.

[JAJ]

Anyways - if you look at my original post my question is 'Does anyone know how many Indians apply for British Citizenship every year ?'. So this question is not abt people who came here in 40 or 50. this is abt current applicants.

You will find the answer if you read the Home Office publication "Persons Granted British Citizenship".

The links are posted earlier in the thread. It does talk about numbers of naturalisation grants, but applications should usually be quite similar, allowing for timing and refusals.

[basis]

You will find the answer if you read the Home Office publication "Persons Granted British Citizenship".

thanks Jaj.

I hv alreadt read it and put my understanding og that in the 5th message in this thread.

[simar]

Hi Guys,
Through it is just 6 months ago i came to uk on hsmp. I have good job and now settled. But I guess, I am thinking the same way to move back to India after few years. An Indian couple living close to my house are now moving back to india after living 4 years in UK. In June they are schedule to get ILR status. Actually the chap have good job offer of 18 lakhs per annum in Trivandrum.
Even I am thinking to move back, but as of now i am not sure of BC & OIC card can be hold at same time. Still early days for me but will keenly see these discussion.

cheers
simar

[basis]

Hi Guys,
Through it is just 6 months ago i came to uk on hsmp. I have good job and now settled. But I guess, I am thinking the same way to move back to India after few years. An Indian couple living close to my house are now moving back to india after living 4 years in UK. In June they are schedule to get ILR status. Actually the chap have good job offer of 18 lakhs per annum in Trivandrum.

It is very true. The way Indian economy is developing there is reverse migration in place. I know people who have stayed in the developed countries for years (even 15-20 years) are coming back in numbers. In fact R2I (Return to India), B2B (Back to Bharat (India's native name)) are very popular today. The salaries are ever growing and the costs compared to developed countries are still very low. The cliamate in most part of the country is very good.

I had been to Bangalore, Chennai and Hyderabad recently. The number of people from US, Europe, Asia-pacific countries was so much that I thought what are we doing in the UK, US and so on. US President is wooing India. India will certainly one of the developed nations in next 10 years and those who have a choice yet - please think many times before giving up Indian ciizenship (dont give up what the world wants to have so much).

Even I am thinking to move back, but as of now i am not sure of BC & OIC card can be hold at same time. Still early days for me but will keenly see these discussion.

Long time to go for the PR and then BC. At the pace the world is moving I cant even imagine the situation 4-5 years from now. Anyways good luck. OCI and BC can certinly be helpd together..........I dont know what gives u the impression that they cant be.

[basis]

GDP projection:

http://www.indiaeducation.info/Bizschool/overview.asp
Just to let some of the Indian origins who have lost touch with post 1999 India some economic facts -

India is on its way to become a developed country within a decade. The economy will grow at 8 to 10% rate for next 3 to 5 years (no other major economy is growing even half of that pace.....UK is merely 2 %). Stock market Index SENSEX has gone from 6000 to 10700 within 2 years.

Indian stock market is still trading about 16 PE compared to 22 PE for U.S Dow Jone. so there is still good scope for the Indian stock mkt to move much high.

Globalization and open market system have enabled India to levreage upon its large English speaking vibrant and young population. India is going to be global leader for service sector as China is for manufacturing.

On Purchasing basis, we were not even a trillion dollar economy about a decade ago - this year, our great 1.2 billion Inidans will purchase more than 6 trillion dollars worth of goods and services. Our economy has grown 5 times.

Some external links to prove the facts

India v China
http://www.ibef.org/india/indiachina.aspx

Indian Economy in 1999:

http://www.photius.com/wfb2000/countrie ... onomy.html

GDP (PPP) - 3.6 trillion dollars in 2005

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... _%28PPP%29

India to be 3rd largest economy in the world in 2006 (over 4 trillion dollars in 2006):

http://in.rediff.com/money/2006/jan/25india1.htm

[basis]

England India cricket match is on which country do u support - brit indians.

[JAJ]

England India cricket match is on which country do u support - brit indians.

Is the question even relevant to those in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and the Crown Dependencies?

[lemess]

GDP projection:

http://www.indiaeducation.info/Bizschool/overview.asp
Just to let some of the Indian origins who have lost touch with post 1999 India some economic facts -

India is on its way to become a developed country within a decade. The economy will grow at 8 to 10% rate for next 3 to 5 years (no other major economy is growing even half of that pace.....UK is merely 2 %). Stock market Index SENSEX has gone from 6000 to 10700 within 2 years.

Indian stock market is still trading about 16 PE compared to 22 PE for U.S Dow Jone. so there is still good scope for the Indian stock mkt to move much high.

Globalization and open market system have enabled India to levreage upon its large English speaking vibrant and young population. India is going to be global leader for service sector as China is for manufacturing.

On Purchasing basis, we were not even a trillion dollar economy about a decade ago - this year, our great 1.2 billion Inidans will purchase more than 6 trillion dollars worth of goods and services. Our economy has grown 5 times.

Some external links to prove the facts

India v China
http://www.ibef.org/india/indiachina.aspx

Indian Economy in 1999:

http://www.photius.com/wfb2000/countrie ... onomy.html

GDP (PPP) - 3.6 trillion dollars in 2005

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... _%28PPP%29

India to be 3rd largest economy in the world in 2006 (over 4 trillion dollars in 2006):

http://in.rediff.com/money/2006/jan/25india1.htm

I think these numbers can be misleading. Bear in mind a lot of these huge numbers have to be related to the enormous Indian population. You really need to look at statistics on a per capita basis. Looked at that way India is not going to be a 'developed' country in 10 years. There are deep rooted issues of infrastructure, opportunity and social structure that will take about half a century to resolve.
I would agree that the trend is definitely in the right direction but it will take a lot longer than a decade for India to be a developed country in the sense of the western economies.

A high GDP is meaningless in my opinion. A country with the second largest population in the world with an area larer than western europe is expected to have a large GDP.

[basis]

Today the world is saying that population will be an advantage for India than a liability. There would be high consumer demand within the country and everyone within and outside wants to tap that. so if you are skilled and professional then probably India is better place to be in today than few years ago compared to other countries. Agreed that this leaves a major imbalance in terms of poor and rich - haves and have nots.

[basis]

Some very good links -specially the last link which compares G7 and E7 economies. Clearly growth is in the E7 economies in the days ahead.

in case of the UK - consensus preditctions are - 'golden era' is over. UK economy will struggle in the years to come, interest will have to soften, housing will face uphill task in growing more than inflation rate (effectively housing in the UK is no more a good investment option as it will grow at a rate below the base interest rate) and effectively Pound will fall. So for all those who eventually want to transfer the pounds (specially the Indians who love to keep their assets in foreign currency) sell of you pounds now as the big slide has just begun.

Comparison among China, India, UK and US

http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/article/0,1 ... 94,00.html

Long-term growth prospects for large emerging economies

[lemess]

The thrust of that article is about the Pound perhaps falling relative to the dollar not the rupee. And bear in mind that would be a 'reversion to mean' scenario and it will probably return to the same level it used to be 3 years ago. The dollar has fallen sharply over the last few years.

There is no questions that demographics favour India in the long term and it would make a good investment. However, the pound has been a strong currency to hold assets in over the last 300 years and I don't think it is likely to go into freefall anytime soon.

There is no doubt that the western economies are entering a period of demographic crisis in the next 5 years or so with and ageing population and less productive economies and I think economies that embrace immigration as a means of ensuring continuous re-invigoration of the workforce will do best. I would put the UK in this category,