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WP Employment and tax return: I do not want ILR; taxes-back?

General UK immigration & work permits; don't post job search or family related topics!

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Eugene_UK
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WP Employment and tax return: I do not want ILR; taxes-back?

Post by Eugene_UK » Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:19 pm

In the light of recent changes to the immigration law and term for ILR I am sure many of us are questioning once again what hell are we doing in this country and what our rights here if there any.
I think now is the time to think how we can exploit this state as well in the same way they exploit our talents, knowledge and most important – TIME - they want us to waste another year of our life waiting for ILR.

So I have decided to look at an option of leaving the UK without waiting for illusory ILR stamp in my passport (and who knows what surprises to come from HO) and would like to ask knowledgeable community of this respected forum:

- How much in tax we can claim on the basis that we leave this country permanently?

I am paying £15 000 annually in taxes and the final figure could be impressive. I know that we are using NHS, but what about army (I am not eligible to vote therefore my opinion does not count whether to send troops to Iraq or somewhere else), we are not allowed to claim any benefits at all. So shall they give us all our taxes back if we would like to leave the UK!?

Please advise. Many thanks indeed.

John
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Post by John » Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:33 pm

Eugene, you ask :-
How much in tax we can claim on the basis that we leave this country permanently?
Sorry to say there is a very easy answer to that question .... none! But then you probably realised that already, didn't you.
we are not allowed to claim any benefits at all
Not so! If I may say so, a common fallacy. All you are not allowed to claim are the limited list of benefits within the definition of Public Funds defined in para 6 of the Immigration Rules. All other UK benefits, of which there are many, are fully claimable without having an impact upon any future visa application.

For example, there are no maternity benefits listed in the definition of Public Funds. It therefore follows that anyone in the UK on say a WP or HSMP visa, or their dependants, is able to claim maternity benefits ... including free prescriptions, free NHS dentistry, etc etc..

Come on Eugene, stick with it!
John

tvt
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Post by tvt » Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:37 pm

There are some ways to "engineer" legitimate tax repayments esp. when you do that just before you emigrate thus leaving the revenue not many opportunities to raise enquiries / recover the money. However, these issues are outside the scope of this forum. Contact your tax adviser for more information.
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EJ
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Post by EJ » Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:44 pm

Dear tvt, I thought you can at least reclaim a portion of your NI contributions that were made towards your state pension. This could amount to quite a substantial sum if you are paying as much taxes as you ay you are. Does anyone on the forum know about the rules for recalimin NI conts?

John
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Post by John » Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:49 pm

I thought you can at least reclaim a portion of your NI contributions that were made towards your state pension.
No, not possible.
John

tvt
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Post by tvt » Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:56 pm

The best way to generate repayments is to start a new business as a self-employed (not a company). Any losses you make during the first four years of trade can be carried back 3 years (FIFO) to offset against any income (in. employment income) s. 381 ICTA. You can generate losses for example by using transfer-pricing technics (as a small business you are not subject to the transfer-pricing anti-avoidance legislation).

You also need a crafty tax adviser for that.
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bbdivo
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Post by bbdivo » Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:45 pm

Eugene, I'm struggleing to understand why you consider an extra year to get ILR such a waste? I know it's disheartening having to wait another year, but if you intend to make the UK your home surely it makes no difference?

After reading some of the US immigration forums and seeing how frustrated some of the people (those particularly affected by retrogression) are an extra year doesnt seem as bad compared to not knowing at all when you'll get PR status.

John
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Post by John » Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:09 pm

tvt wrote:You also need a crafty tax adviser for that.
But even a crafty tax consultant would tell you that would not get you a repayment of any Class 1 National insurance Contributions.
John

Eugene_UK
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Post by Eugene_UK » Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:12 pm

Guys, many thanks for the replies. I did not expect that this topic will attract such an interest, but it seems everybody had a thought about this.
Dear Bbdivo, I think most of us need ILR not for making the UK a home but by acquiring British Nationality to become FREE! Freedom is the driving force of all our struggles here away from our home countries. And believe me, UK will never be your HOME. For your kids -yes, not for you and me. We are - ECONOMIC migrants, we have not come here because we love fish and chips and weather. I am sure weather in our countries is much better and food. That’s why recent decision to change the rules for ILR has made a lot of noise amongst our community. And if you think that this is it and nothing will follow, beware, you could expect anything from them. Do you know why: because it is easier for politicians to hit people like you and me so they can report to their voters "we are fighting immigration and immigrants". This is what all British people would like to hear. No MP will be immigration friendly, only businesses because we help them to make money - I make my company at least £1 000 000 per year.
I will consult my tax advisor and try to find out what we can get out of them in case if we decide to disconnect ourselves from this Matrix. Your thoughts will be appreciated: how we can legally exploit the system. Please advise I would like to start using THEM. Maternity benefit...sorry not for me, I have just separated, what else can we claim? Council tax- no, jobless support - no...What else....

tt
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Post by tt » Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:30 pm

Once you have contributed to the NI for 25% or more of your deemed working years (what's that, about 11 out of 44?), don't you get back a proportion of the eligible pension on hitting retirement?

What if you contribute for less than 11 years - but during that time, you were contributing a high amount (let's say, from a 50,000 income) - is there not some concession in years here?

Interesting that other countries (Australia?) allow you to take any pension payments/superannuation away with you when you permanently leave (but subject to pretty tough tax rates).

ppron747
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Post by ppron747 » Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:59 pm

Eugene_UK wrote:.....Do you know why: because it is easier for politicians to hit people like you and me so they can report to their voters "we are fighting immigration and immigrants". This is what all British people would like to hear.....
I don't want to interrupt your flow, but it seems to me that there enough British people hanging around here, helping where they can, to show that it is simply not true that "all British people" are anti-immigration. You might like to consider the possibility of continuing your campaign without offending a section of your audience.
|| paul R.I.P, January, 2007
Want a 2nd opinion? One will be along shortly....

basis

Re: WP Employment and tax return: I do not want ILR; taxes-b

Post by basis » Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:50 am

Eugene_UK wrote:So I have decided to look at an option of leaving the UK without waiting for illusory ILR stamp in my passport (and who knows what surprises to come from HO)
I fullly understand your frustration. But my 2 cents -

1. In the past 8 years I have been associated with UK immigration system I did not find many surprises to be honest to make it all suspicious. In fact even this change from 4 to5 years has been on table for some time now and it was mainly a question of when. Yes the transition period allowed could have been better.

2. Dont give up what u have rightfully and by hard work accummulated. It is a question of one year - no where in world you would be better off in one year as a migrant. And think abt the benefits after ILR - Naturalisation and the power that comes alongwith UK passport.

Think positive dont base your decisions on negative factors. good luck.

ezh
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Post by ezh » Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:44 pm

Come on, Eugene-UK!

your Freedom will come to you. Don't despair! Continue to stay in the UK, it will be your home soon - you'll like it very much.

By the way you can buy any food you like in Harrods and the excellent wheather is just 30 min away by EasyJet, in Spain... :D

Chris
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Post by Chris » Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:15 pm

I was in similar situation about some months back. I am on UK Work Permit 2.5 years now. I was offered a better job (better pay + Benefit) in Netherlands under Knowledge Migrant(equivalent to HSMP) visa for 5 year eventually converting to Citizenship. I did do a lot of research and found UK was a better bet since I was nearing 4 years to complete for my ILR. But this new law coming retrospectively has really discourage me to keep going in UK. The skill I possess is very rare and hence still have the same offer from the Dutch company. I have decided to head off to Netherland and grab that offer.

Hope fully I would get my HSMP in Netherland in 1 - 2 months and head for a better life with more certaintly :)

Chris

ezh
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Post by ezh » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:32 pm

with respect to you, how do you know that the Netherlands won't change its immigration rules soon? It is such a small country... You may end up waiting for 10 years for your IRL there and perhaps will come back to the UK...

Eugene_UK
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Post by Eugene_UK » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:55 pm

Hey, that`s what I mean - how do yo know that UK government will not change the rules within next 2 years, under pressure from BNP or Tories perhaps...or Migrationwatch...

Dear ppron747, I would llike to correct myself: MAJORITY (not all) of British people are against immigration. I do not think this is an offence to name the things the way they are (anyway I am glad that this forum is read also by non-immigrants):
From ScottsMan.com:
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid ... =602872004

Poll shows Britons fear immigration has damaged UK
FRASER NELSON
POLITICAL EDITOR
BRITAIN has been named as one of the most xenophobic countries in the world, surpassing France, Germany, Spain and Japan in its hostility to immigration.

A new opinion poll which sampled opinion across ten countries found the majority of people in Britain are supportive of religious tolerance - but still believe that immigration has damaged the country.

The research triggered a mixture of disbelief and concern from mainstream political parties yesterday, amid fears that asylum is becoming a growing issue ahead of the 10 June European Parliament elections.

Ipsos, a Paris-based polling firm, found 60 per cent believing that immigrants were a bad influence on Britain - the highest proportion of all countries surveyed.

Chris
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Post by Chris » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:24 am

ezh wrote:with respect to you, how do you know that the Netherlands won't change its immigration rules soon? It is such a small country... You may end up waiting for 10 years for your IRL there and perhaps will come back to the UK...

I fail understand this analogy. Should I treat the country based on assumption or actuals. UK HAS changed the rules. Netherlands MAY change the rules, worst if it does I am still better off.

Its like B MAY slap A and so A should slap B in advance. OR so and so country has Deadly weapons so I should hit it in advance......

ezh
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Post by ezh » Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:42 am

Eugen_UK,

I don't think you should pay much attention to the result of these polls. It is easy to find polls with the opposite opinion. Did you work for some extended period of time in, for example, Germany and Frnace? If not - try. You'll prise the UK very highly then :D

Chris,
it is not the matter of "will" it is the matter of "when" - the Netherlands will change the rules... But go there, Holland is a good country to work and live (the landscape is too flat to me though). Although everyone speaks English you may want to learn the Dutch language - you'll need it to pass your Dutch citizenship test soon :)
Last edited by ezh on Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

basis

Post by basis » Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:05 am

ezh wrote:Eugen_UK,

I don't think you should pay much attention to the result of these polls. It is easy to find polls with the opposite opinion. Did you work for some extended period of time in, for example, Germany and Frnace? If not - try. You'll prise the UK very highly then :D

Chris,
it is not the matter of "will" it is the matter of "when" - the Netherlands will change the rules... But go there, Holland is a good country to work and live (the landscape is too flat to me though). Although everyone speaks English you may want to learn the Dutch language - you'll need it to pass your Dutch citizenship ceremony soon :)
ezh - I understand and appreciate the point u want to make. but lets not do same mistake that people who are angry with the ILR change are making. Lets not compare UK with any other country and say that other countries are far worse for migrants.

Everyone has their likings and they should go by it. The thing that people need to keep in mind is not to base decisions on one single event and jump somewhere with negative push than positive pull.

If whatever eugine posted was true and believed in it then eugine would have long back left the country or wouldn't have arrived here indeed. The news is as old as 2 yrs.

ezh
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Post by ezh » Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:21 am

I've just tried to help the guys and did it in a wrong way - totaly agreed with you, basis.

bbdivo
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Post by bbdivo » Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:22 am

Eugene_UK wrote:Hey, that`s what I mean - how do yo know that UK government will not change the rules within next 2 years, under pressure from BNP or Tories perhaps...or Migrationwatch...
I seriously doubt the BNP have any influence on changing immigration rules, do they even hold any seats in parliament? Maybe the Tories will have some influence but definately not the BNP.
Eugene_UK wrote:BRITAIN has been named as one of the most xenophobic countries in the world
That does not make sense, if that were the case then surely we should be getting abuse hurled at us on a daily basis? I mean have you or anyone on this board been made to feel unwelcome because they are an immigrant, or to put it another way discriminated against in any way?

Smit
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Post by Smit » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:06 pm

Eugene,

I believe there are some specialists who deal with claiming taxes back where people have been working abroad, I will PM you contacts of someone you could get in touch with.

Smit

ezh
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Post by ezh » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:32 pm

I don't think that realy highly skilled immigrants need to fear much:

II. CONSERVATIVE PARTY

(a) Track Record

20. For the last fifteen of the Conservative years (1982- 1997) immigration was not a significant political issue. Their declared policy was “ to restrict severely the numbers coming to live permanently or to work in the United Kingdom.”

21. In fact, net immigration continued steadily. The average annual figure was 59,000 over the period 1988 – 1997.

22. Through much of the 1980s work permits were issued at a rate of 20-30,000 a year, rising to 42,000 in 1997. By comparison, 156,000 were issued in 2004.

23. The settlement of spouses ran at about 30,000 per year.

24. The weakest part of the record is asylum where the response to a surge in claims to 43,000 was inadequate. The introduction of a computer system (which failed) combined with a reduction in staff left an extremely difficult situation for Labour to inherit.

25. Overall, acceptances for settlement (which lag several years behind immigration numbers) ran at about 50–60,000 a year compared to the present level of some 140,000.

(b) Proposals

(i) Work Permits

26. The Conservatives propose that there should be two types of work permit – temporary permits that would not lead to settlement and permanent ones that would. The former would be primarily for transfers within international companies but would be subject to strict conditions. Employers would have to post a bond to guarantee departure and there would be no switching to other types of visa. Applications could be made for a settlement permit but within the quota.

27. Settlement permits would be subject to an annual quota and would be allocated on a points based system. Points would be given for work skills, age, English language competency etc.

28. This system, similar to that in Australia, has the advantage that it is not entirely employer driven. It also takes into account the wider impact of immigration on society, public services etc.

(ii) Asylum

29. The Conservatives propose a fundamental reform of the asylum system. They would withdraw from the present EU and international legal framework, attempt to negotiate fresh international agreements and pass national laws to implement a tighter and swifter asylum system. Those who destroyed their documents or who claimed only on discovery would be refused. The use of detention would be expanded. The effect of these changes would be to facilitate the return of failed asylum seekers. The long term aim is to end the present system whereby you have to get to Britain to claim asylum here. The Conservatives regard this as an incentive to people smugglers. The proposals involve setting up centres overseas where claimants could be sent to have their claims assessed. There would be an annual quota.

30. This outcome would not be easy to achieve. The later stages depend on finding suitable sites overseas and there would be considerable legal and practical difficulties to overcome. The shift of processing of claims to offshore centres could be expected to deter many asylum seekers, 70% of whose claims failed in 2003. However, it might also result in a significant increase in illegal immigration by people who are determined to enter the UK despite the tightening of the asylum system. It could, however, improve the climate for the reception of those who are genuine refugees. They have said that no genuine asylum seekers will be refused simply because the quota is full – although they might have to wait for a place.

(iii) Family reunion

31. The Conservatives have undertaken to consult on proposals involving raising the minimum age for spouses to 21 and tightening the rules on accommodation and support.

32. This is an important area on which neither of the main parties has produced an effective policy.

(iv) Other matters

33. The Conservatives have proposed full medical tests for those coming to Britain for more than 12 months. Only TB will automatically preclude entry. Other conditions will be dealt with on a case by case basis. Applicants will pay their own costs. Asylum seekers will not be affected.

34. The Conservatives’ main proposal is that there should be an annual limit to immigration, agreed by Parliament. Within this there would be quotas for the three main streams of immigration – work permits, asylum and family reunion. They have not said what that limit should be but have spoken of “a substantial reduction” in immigration.

35. This last is of cardinal importance. It will not be easy to achieve but it is feasible. Each major category would have to be managed downwards in the light of circumstances. Whatever the pace of progress, it would have the major advantage of transparency. If the limit was exceeded the government would have to explain why. The effect could well be to reduce substantially the widespread concern about the scale and pace of immigration into Britain.

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