EEA3 - Permanent residence

[gotme_c]

Does the new 5 year ILR rule apply for EEC national currently on residence permit applying for permanent residency. The person in question has been on a dependent visa of a work permit holder for 2 years & 8 months from Aug 2002 and subsequently been on a EEC residence permit for 1 year(@ 25th April 2006) as she is from the new accession country.

Can the person apply for permanent residency at the end of 4 years which falls in Aug 2006?

[John]

Does the new 5 year ILR rule apply for EEC national currently on residence permit applying for permanent residency.

I am very sorry to report that, yes, the change of legislation does also affect those currently on an EEA Residence Permit.

With 4 years up as far away as August 2006 I don't see anyway round that. She will need to wait until say August 2007.

[gotme_c]

John -

How come if the new rule states that it only applies to work related or ancestry route based ILR - please see IND website and thats what it states...

[John]

Exactly this point has already been dealt with on this Board. Have a look at this topic and in particular look at my post on 17.03.06 at 2:34.pm. You will see, unfortunately, that the change does catch people in your category.

Please don't shoot the messenger! Personally I don't agree with the retrospective way this change has been brought in.

[wyga]

Hello
I found this page today, while searching for an aswer of my question:

can I apply for permanent residence (EEA3) or is it too early?

I did a search on 'EEA3' but despite of some cases described, I am still not sure and would be grateful for your advice.

Me and my husband (both Polish) came here in April 2001 on a 6 months turist visa. We were both working and have bank statements and P60's to prove it.
After 5 months my husband became a student on a student visa and I had a dependant person visa. We were both working again and have P60's.

After one year our student visa has been renewed for another year but in the meantime (May 2003) my employer has successfully applied for a work permit for myself. After Poland joined the EU in May 2004 we applied for Residence Permits, which we now have, issued 2.06.2004; valid until 30.06.2009.

We both can prove employment, student status or self employment for the whole duration, since we first entered the UK. We do not claim any benefits/credits and plan to stay in this country permanently as we really like in here

Does anyone know if we are eligible for permanent residence?
Thank you.

Joanna

[John]

No, I think you need to wait until June 2009. That is I think you need to wait until your time in the UK exercising treaty rights/b] has exceeded five years.

Time in the UK on a student visa rarely counts towards ILR. The only exception is that it can be counted if the person is making a 10-year Long Residence application.

And the time on a WP might have led to ILR in 2008 but you have switched routes, to the EEA/EU track.

[wyga]

Thanks for your reply John.

And the time on a WP might have led to ILR in 2008 but you have switched routes, to the EEA/EU track.

What do you mean 'you have switched routes'? Can you please explain.

Actually, (perhaps this is a silly question ) what is the difference (if any) between ILR and Permament Residence?

Thanks again

Joanna

[John]

What do you mean 'you have switched routes'?

You were previously not on the EEA/EU route .... now you are.

what is the difference (if any) between ILR and Permament Residence?

One and the same. Permanent Residence is the term used in the EEA/EU route.

[wyga]

And the time on a WP might have led to ILR in 2008 but you have switched routes, to the EEA/EU track.

Does it mean that our time on a WP (since May 2003) will not count and we definetely have to wait until 2009?

PS. Thanks for your VERY QUICK answers

Joanna

[John]

Does it mean that our time on a WP (since May 2003) will not count and we definetely have to wait until 2009?

That is my opinion but if anyone reading this thinks differently then do please post.

[wyga]

Thank you John

It would be useful to see what other people think. Did anyone have a similar experience?

I was advised at the time that WP would be the best solution for us, as this would give us a 'quality' time, which would count towards ILR.
At present it looks like, because Poland joined EU and I have a residence permit, I have to wait longer for my Permanent Residence.

It confuses me

Joanna

[JAJ]

Thank you John
I was advised at the time that WP would be the best solution for us, as this would give us a 'quality' time, which would count towards ILR.
At present it looks like, because Poland joined EU and I have a residence permit, I have to wait longer for my Permanent Residence.

It appears that that is the case. But your status as EEA citizens gives you more rights than you would have as a work permit holder.

Have you registered with the Workers Registration Scheme (if liable to do so)?

If you plan to have children born in the UK, the children will not be British citizens at birth (if born before you get permanent residence) but can be registered as British citizens immediately once you become permanent residents.

[John]

Have you registered with the Workers Registration Scheme (if liable to do so)?

They were not liable to do so, having been working in the UK legally prior to their country joining the EU. As said in the opening post :-

After Poland joined the EU in May 2004 we applied for Residence Permits, which we now have, issued 2.06.2004; valid until 30.06.2009.

-: which clearly confirms no need to register under the WRS.

[wyga]

Ok, imagine the following situation:
a person had a 4 year WP in 2001, which would mean that in 2005 this person could have applied for ILR (after 4 years). Poland joines the EU in May 2004, and on the bases of that and previous status, a person (an EU citizen) applies for a Residence Permit. RP is granted to this person for 5 years, that is until 2009.

1. Does it mean that those 4 years on a WP don't mean anything and the person is loosing out precious time?

2. What if we hadn't been applying for a RP in 2004? Would my time on a WP count towards PR then?

If this is the case then fine, but it simply does not sound right to me.

Have you registered with the Workers Registration Scheme (if liable to do so)?

They were not liable to do so, having been working in the UK legally prior to their country joining the EU. As said in the opening post :-


Correct
Thanks.
Joanna

[John]

Joanna, I think the answers to your questions are :-

1. Yes
2. Yes

But if anyone thinks this is wrong then do please post.

By the way, it does not sound fine to me either. It does not seem fair at all, and hopefully someone will post saying I have got it totally wrong.

[micka]

You have got it totally wrong...

That better?

I have been in UK on a work permit coming up to 5 years. As of 4 weeks ago I was granted Lithuanian citizenship. Looking thruogh the EEA form, it says you need to show 5 years of legal status in the UK. Which could be work permit, or Residence permit. They will just add up together.

This has come from phone calls with the Home Office. If it counted towards ILR then it counts toward Permanant Residence.

[JAJ]

You have got it totally wrong...

That better?

I have been in UK on a work permit coming up to 5 years. As of 4 weeks ago I was granted Lithuanian citizenship. Looking thruogh the EEA form, it says you need to show 5 years of legal status in the UK. Which could be work permit, or Residence permit. They will just add up together.

This has come from phone calls with the Home Office. If it counted towards ILR then it counts toward Permanant Residence.

I wouldn't rely on phone calls from the Home Office as a reliable source of advice!! The only time they add up different (legal) resident periods is under the 10 year long residence rule.

If you are almost at the end of your 5 year term on a work permit, why not just stay on a work permit and apply for ILR on that basis? If you start talking about EEA treaty rights there is a serious risk you will re-set the 5 year clock.

Are you planning to take out British citizenship in due course and do you know if you will be able to keep your Lithuanian citizenship if you do?

[John]

Looking thruogh the EEA form, it says you need to show 5 years of legal status in the UK. Which could be work permit, or Residence permit. They will just add up together.

You are presumably referring to the EEA3 form? I have just checked on that and see that it says, with a few words emphasised by me :-

To acquire the right to reside permanently in the UK, you need to have resided here in accordance with the relevant EEA Regulations for a continuous period of 5 years.

Or put it another way, if you have not had five years in the UK exercising treaty rights then you cannot apply using form EEA3.

So Micka the advice you have already had is good! Specifically don't use form EEA1 to try to get a Residence Permit in the UK. For two reasons ... firstly it will reset your ILR clock, and secondly you don't need to! In accordance with the EEA regulations that came into force on 30.04.06 it is no longer compulsory for EEA Citizens to get a Residence Permit. They can if they want, but they don't need to.

But for you ... don't .... if you want to get ILR sooner.

If you are not talking about the EEA3 form then please post details of which one, what page, and what exactly does it say?

[micka]

Well, I am using the phone calls as good advice. I have no reason to believe it is not (well not yet anyway).

Yes, EEA3 I am talking about. And another look into the actual Laws section revealed the below. This (to me) says that any time eligible for ILR is also eligible for EEA3 for accession state citizens.

Now I only became that as of 4 weeks ago so for me the work permit should be enough to provide 5 years eligible time in the UK (due to the late aquiring of the 2nd citizenship and the work permit started prior to 2004)

I also recall (Home office somewhere) that I should fill out both EEA1 AND EEA3 and just send them in together, implying that you do need to have a residence permit first anyway.

Fiinally, all this negates my need for British citizenship (I am australian too so no worries for general travel)

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/lawand ... ules/part7

"255. Any person (other than a student) who under, either the Immigration (European Economic Area) Order 1994, or the 2000 EEA Regulations has been issued with a residence permit or residence document valid for 5 years, and who has remained in the United Kingdom in accordance with the provisions of that Order or those Regulations (as the case may be) for 5 years and continues to do so may, on application, have his residence permit or residence document (as the case may be) endorsed to show permission to remain in the United Kingdom indefinitely.

255B. This paragraph applies where an Accession State national has been issued with a residence permit under the 2000 EEA Regulations and, prior to 1st May 2004, remained in the United Kingdom in accordance with the provisions of these Rules and in a capacity which would have entitled that Accession State national to apply for indefinite leave to remain after a continuous period of 5 years in that capacity in the United Kingdom.

Where this paragraph applies, the period during which the Accession State national remained in the United Kingdom prior to 1st May 2004 shall be treated as a period during which he remained in the United Kingdom in accordance with the 2000 EEA Regulations for the purpose of calculating the 5 year period referred to in paragraph 255."

[John]

Ah Micka so you are trying to rely upon para 255B? I really think you are going to have problems. Why? Quite simply because you were not an EEA national prior to the 01.05.04 date mentioned therein.

Yesterday you posted "As of 4 weeks ago I was granted Lithuanian citizenship.", so confirming that you were not an EEA national either during the period prior to 01.05.04, nor in the period 01.05.04 to "4 weeks ago". You can't possibly be treated as exercising Treaty Rights until "4 weeks ago".

I just see how it works for you. Just continue on the WP route to get ILR .... where is the problem in that?

[John]

Wyga, Joanna, are you still following this? If so Micka has kindly pointed out para 255B of the Immigration Rules which whilst I don't think that helps him (as he only became an EEA Citizen 4 weeks ago) I certainly think it helps you!

That is for you I think the 5-year period starts when you got the WP in May 2003. So you can apply for Permanent Residence in May 2008.

The time prior to May 2003 when a student visa was held? I still don't think that can count. Para 255B includes "in a capacity which would have entitled that Accession State national to apply for indefinite leave to remain after a continuous period of 5 years in that capacity in the United Kingdom." But the point is that time in the UK as a student doesn't count, as made clear by para 255 .... "Any person (other than a student) who ......".

Hope you find May 2008 better than my previously suggested April 2009. And sorry for not spotting that provision, para 255B, earlier.

[micka]

Yes, Joanna should be covered by that.

As for me...The problem is that ILR cost £500 (appointment) while EEA3 is free. Let me also point out that I don't actually need this...

I am applying for the Permanent Residence status because I believe I am eligible and it will take out any problems (if any) with being accession EU.

Now I am sure that I am exempt from Working Registration because I have legally worked in the UK for the last year. Therefore I am free to work and exercise treaty rights on the new passport. I could get a resident permit and that would be that. But I am going to apply for the EEA3 as I think I should get it. If they do reject me then so be it. However I still believe they won't reject it based on the Work Permit vs Treaty Right status. Will let you know...

Also it helps that I don't need any gov. benefits (Which I believe is the main extra thing the permanent residence would provide??? vs EU Resident permit)

As an aside, the EEA3 form says "Letter of Employment(s), P60's" are enough to show treaty rights as employed. And my new passport doesn't say that I only became Lithuanian 4 weeks ago, it is just a new passport. So if I was to fill out the EEA3 form out correctly "to the letter" there would be no indication of the fact that it was work permit.

Cheers

[John]

I am applying for the Permanent Residence status because I believe I am eligible

Good luck, do let us know how you get on.

[JAJ]

Ah Micka so you are trying to rely upon para 255B? I really think you are going to have problems. Why? Quite simply because you were not an EEA national prior to the 01.05.04 date mentioned therein.

Yesterday you posted "As of 4 weeks ago I was granted Lithuanian citizenship.", so confirming that you were not an EEA national either during the period prior to 01.05.04, nor in the period 01.05.04 to "4 weeks ago". You can't possibly be treated as exercising Treaty Rights until "4 weeks ago".

I just see how it works for you. Just continue on the WP route to get ILR .... where is the problem in that?

It depends on whether he applied for Lithuanian citizenship, or just a first Lithuanian passport

[JAJ]

Fiinally, all this negates my need for British citizenship (I am australian too so no worries for general travel)

You need to be aware that UK permanent residence (whether through normal route or EEA) will be likely lost should you leave the UK for more than 2 years and can be lost sooner if you move overseas.

There's no guarantee that a Lithuanian passport would let you back into the UK 10 or so years down the line.