Spouse visa - sponsor to continue working commuting to China

[Ash4uk]

Having spent the last 3 hours reading so many posts I'm feeling much more reassured about the UK settlement visa application my wife will submit to the ECO here in China next week. We are just writing up the Additional Information page.

After reading the MANY posts on this site, I'm feeling confident that we'll be ok with the accommodation and maintenance requirement i.e. having the cleared funds to support us - currently approx. 18,000UK pounds, evenly spread between the UK and China bank accounts.

We had a few concerns though and I hope someone will be kind enough to give us some advice. I'm trying to explain clearly since it feels like a unique case and I haven't found it on your website yet.

1. We have lived together for more 7 years in China, married for 6 years (since 2005) and have a son who is 5 years old. However, though we have lived together and our marriage is subsisting under the language laid out by the UKBA, we don't have any documents really that have both our names attached to the same address.

i.e.

a) no bank statements - Chinese bank account statements don't have addresses written on them. [Joint bank accounts are not allowed in China]
b) no utility bills - since all of our elec, gas, water, telephone call charges are paid via a top-up card system (elec card, gas card, water card - very common in China) or telephone bills are instead paid with cash only at a cashier's window
c) no tenancy agreement with joint names - my wife always signed the agreements over the years (we've moved 3 or 4 times)

The local police station has a record of where I have lived (for China work visa purposes) in their database, but my wife's name is not written on it since this does not apply to her.

The documents we do have to support her settlement application are:

a) about 1000 (one thousand) photographs showing almost every moment we have been together (i.e. before marriage, wedding day, both families together, photos of son's birth - mother and baby and I, photos of the three of us on countless days out together or at home, birthdays, spring festival, Christmas etc. You name it, we likely have a photo of it! We also have 100's of short videos of birthday's, parties, family meals, son learning to walk and talk, other special occasions etc.

b) letters from my family in the UK over the years addressed to me with the contents of the letters regularly asking how my wife is and generally saying hello to us both

c) 3 handwritten letters from fellow Brits (good friends) living in China (a school owner and a chief retirement fund manager) who have either known us since before we got married, or since shortly after then, testifying that we have lived together as a family for the entire time in a subsisting marriage/relationship

d) mobile phone and text message records dating back many months (the maximum allowed printable from the phone company website was one years' worth)

e) plane tickets (flight number and visa all corroborate) for a family visit to the UK in Dec 2006.

Question: Does anyone (with knowledge of the oftentimes paperless daily society of China i.e. the saying here is: cash is king) know if the above (a) to (e) will be sufficient to show a subsisting relationship? feel so worried about this. I read so many posts on here talking about how it is useful to supply utility bills, bank accounts, payslips, tenancy agreements etc. etc. and we don't have any of them (as explained above)


2. I am working in a reasonably well paid job here in China currently. This is my third month of contracted employment. I will receive my payslip for my third monthly wage before the middle of September. My salary is paid in cash - the company is sorting out an employment salary paid to employee accounts system this Autumn. I personally carry my salary to the bank and pay it in myself on the same day I receive it.

My employer has agreed to write a letters to submit as a supporting document for the Sponsor for my wife's settlement visa application which states that when my wife receives her settlement visa, I will return to the UK with her and my son, and continue working for my current China-based employer full time from the UK property we rented last month for a year. The letter will state that I will commute between my UK residence (we will reside together there as a family) and the China office fairly frequently i.e. once a month for 10 days.

My employer wishes to open a UK office in early 2012. I've been asked to manage this development for the company (bringing, might I say, new jobs to the UK (oh yeah!)). But for the next 6 months or so, I will need to commute internationally on a number of occasions.

But with the employment situation being seemingly dire in the UK at present, the last thing I want to do is quit my current job - that would be financial suicide!

Question: Has anyone else submitted a successful settlement visa application where the sponsor continued to work for a non-EEA company (in my case China)? Can anyone foresee any issues? Is there any precedent in our favour?

My son will attend a UK primary school and it is planned that my wife will complete her KOL test and then apply for ILR as soon as possible which will allow her to work in the UK. Until that point she will be a full-time housewife. I will be living together with her and our son (the UK will be our home) but visiting China 10 days out of each month on business.


3. The HMRC office service manager I spoke with on the telephone stated that if I complete an SA1 form, or post a self-assessment before the end of the tax year then my income tax on my non-UK based job would be calculated against the dual tax agreement rules that already exist between the UK and China. I'm fine with that of course.

Question: Will the ECO need to see my willingness to pay UK taxes? If so, how can I prove this when I need to wait until Spring 2012 to submit a self-assessment (upon the advice of the HMRC)?

Honestly? I'm almost crazy with anxiety since as a family we have never spent more than about 3 or 4 days apart in the last 7 years (except for a couple of business trips) and we couldn't bear us being separated because of some nasty ECO or arbitrary ruling!!

I'm really hoping someone can help us with this. Thank you very much in advance!

[Ash4uk]

Does anyone please have a few moments to offer some advice?
Thank you.

[Ash4uk]

Hi Folks!

Is there anyone on the forum who can kindly give me advice on the above situation which I posted two days ago?

Thanks in advance!

Ashley

[Lucapooka]

It's a very long post and you might consider posting an abridged version if you want an instant response.

[Ash4uk]

Hi Lucapooka, thank you for the tip.

Here is an abridged version.

We had a few concerns about my wife's spouse visa application which we'll be submitting next week in Beijing. We plan for our 5 yr old son to study in the UK.

1. We married in 2005 and have lived together for more 7 years in China. We are trying to find documents that have both our names attached to the same address. However, we have:

a) no bank statements - Chinese bank account statements don't have addresses written on them. [Joint bank accounts are not allowed in China]
b) no utility bills - since all of our elec, gas, water, telephone call charges are paid via a top-up card system (elec card, gas card, water card - very common in China) or telephone bills are instead paid with cash only at a cashier's window
c) no tenancy agreement with joint names - my wife always signed the agreements over the years (we've moved 3 or 4 times)

However, the local police station has a record of where I have lived (for China work visa purposes) in their database, but my wife's name is not written on it since this does not apply to her.

The documents we do have to support her settlement application are:

a) about 1000 (one thousand) photographs showing almost every moment we have been together, since 2004.
b) letters from my family in the UK over the years
c) 3 handwritten letters from fellow Brits living in China who have either known us since before we got married
d) mobile phone and text message records dating back many months (the maximum allowed printable from the phone company website was one years' worth)
e) plane tickets (flight number and visa all corroborate) for a family visit to the UK in Dec 2006.

Q1. I know applicants in different countries may submit slightly different supporting documents, so does anyone know if the above (a) to (e) will be sufficient to show a subsisting relationship in China, which is a very cashed-based society?


2. My employer in Beijing wants to keep me on after me and my wife and son begin residing in the UK. My employer pays me in cash which I deposit into my bank account myself each month. My employer has agreed to write a letter to submit as a supporting document for me (as Sponsor) stating that when my wife receives her settlement visa, I will return to the UK with her and my son, and continue working for my current employer full time. The letter will state that I will commute between my UK residence (we will reside together there as a family) and the China office fairly frequently i.e. once a month for 10 days.

Q2. Has anyone else submitted a successful settlement visa application where the sponsor continued to work for a non-EEA company? Is there any precedent in our favour?


3. The HMRC office service manager I spoke with recently stated that if I register my taxable income before the end of the tax year then my non-UK based job would be calculated against the dual tax agreement rules that already exist between the UK and China.

Q3: Will the ECO need to see my willingness to pay UK taxes or is this irrelevant for a spouse visa applicant Sponsor?


Thank you in advance for your time to read this and offer advice.
Ashley

[dave_a]

Hi Ashley,

My position was very similar to yours (living and working abroad with a partner and 5 year old child), but in one way it was weaker since I was applying for an unmarried partner’s visa (ILE) based on us living together for more than 4 years and her having passed the Life in UK test.

1) Evidence of subsisting marriage (relationship)

I (like yourself and many others in similar positions) had no joint tenancy agreements, utility bills, etc. However I did manage to open an offshore joint bank account with my partner.

I relied on the following joint evidence:

a) The joint bank account welcome letter (we hadn’t used it so it had no money in it!)
b) Joint Health Insurance statements and medical bills (including evidence of my 5 year old daughter’s birth in UK private hospital).
c) Life Insurance beneficiary declaration for my partner.
d) Joint Car Insurance policies, power of attorney giving me the right to drive her car.
e) Emails from my employer referring to me and my partner as a couple (spouse benefits, housing benefits, information on security at our apartment)
f) Letters from my employer confirming current & previous addresses and confirming that there were no utility bills in my name.
g) UK visit visas (in her passport) and maybe the Consulate still had records of the application forms with my letters of invitation?).
h) Daughter’s (full UK) birth certificate listing us both as parents.

Although I did not supply any evidence from any British friends, it transpired that the ECO had spoken to at least one locally based British person who knew me.

2) Employment

I had agreed informally with my local (non EU) employer that I would continue working for them after I moved to the UK but I did not think this was an issue and said nothing about it in the application (I just detailed my then current position & salary etc). This was an error and could have caused a refusal but fortunately the UK ECO phoned me first and explained that they needed evidence that I would actually be returning to the UK. Even though we had jointly rented a house in the UK they were worried I would just send my family to the UK and stay abroad myself. Apparently, you have to show that you are returning to settle in the UK. They requested that I obtain a letter from my employer stating that I would be working from the UK. It sounds like you will have a similar letter but my advice is to make sure it clearly indicates that you will be mainly living in the UK with your family.

3) I think the issue of paying UK taxes is irrelevant – they will only be concerned that you have enough income to support your family in the UK.

We got our settlement visa and are now living in the UK.

Finally, in your first email it seemed as though you thought that your wife needed ILR before she could work? If so, that's not the case - she can apply for an NI number and then work as soon as she gets to the UK with a settlement visa.

Best of luck with your application.

Dave

[Ash4uk]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your reply and apologies for the belated counter-reply. I'm grateful you took the time to help.

We applied for my wife's settlement visa yesterday and the process was all quite smooth. I also applied for a certificate of entitlement for my son at the same time, so the application was bundled together in the handover process.

We didn't have any utility bills to supply (since utility accounts, insurance, and bank accounts cannot be in joint names here), so instead we submitted:

1) Phone records
2) SMS records
3) About 100 photos each titled and dated for the last 7 years of living together (wife, me and our son together) from first dating in 2004, to wedding, to birth of child, to family and friends together over the years up to last week in fact.
4) Supportive letter from British family friend living locally to us, who holds a professional job.
5) Birthday cards, anniversary cards, festive occasion cards sent to us both over the years from the UK
6) Evidence of transfer of bank funds between our local bank accounts

For the case of employment, I included a letter written, signed and stamped by my employer saying I will be working from the UK to manage a project, reporting back to my employer that is based here in China. I will occasionally be traveling to China for business trips, so the letter stated that too.

I've no idea how long the application process will take, but we've a family wedding to attend in the UK in less than 2 months and we're all heavily involved in the ceremony (assisting the bride and groom), so I'm hopeful it wont take too long.

Ash

[Casa]

I've just picked up on this thread. The main issue isn't proving the relationship is genuine..you appear to have more than sufficient proof of this...it's whether the ECO will accept the minimal evidence you have that you've been living together outside of the UK for the last 4 years as a married couple to enable your wife to qualify for ILE (KOL required).
Did you request this in your application and submit the police registration evidence? If not, your wife will be issued with the standard 2 year settlement visa.
Did your wife show comply with the new pre-entry English requirement?

[Ash4uk]

I was away for a couple of weeks. Just saw your post.

I'm happy to say that both my wife's settlement visa (KOL REQ) and my son's certificate of entitlement to right of abode visa's were both issued late last week. It was about a 10 working day turnaround. Certainly unexpected, but what a pleasant surprise!

Thanks so much Dave for sharing your experience, and for the encouragement and advice given to me on this forum in general, without which we would have had difficulty putting together the two applications and all the supporting documents suggested.

Casa, to answer your questions:

Did you request this in your application and submit the police registration evidence? We didn't make a request for KOL REQ this in the application, though it was implied it would be nice to have it, and we didn't submit the police registration evidence either. I wouldn't have thought this evidence would be conclusive proof we lived together for several reasons, though I can appreciate that every document may count for something. The letters of support from business professionals in our community were likely a better assessment, and validation, of the situation. I imagine the ECO considered each submitted document on it's own merit.
Did your wife show comply with the new pre-entry English requirement? Yes. Her English is almost fluent and she submitted a valid IELTS test cert as evidence.

If it counts for anything, the lesson I learned from this application process, and by reading hundreds of posts in this forum for several months, is that each decision is really made individually based on the documents submitted. Each country's cultural, societal and general way of life is very much taken into consideration in terms of the documents submitted since way of life is so different from country to country.

So while in one country a lack of a document may mean refusal, in another country it is overlooked because such a document is not commonly used i.e. a joint bank account statement/water utility bill (neither of which can be found in China). In our case i.e. the lack of police evidence, in one country this might result in the issue of a standard 2 year settlement visa, but in China, as it transpired, it wasn't considered to be a critical document. More than likely other documents we submitted, relevant to way of life in China were instead taken into consideration (along with all the main docs such as passport, birth cert, marriage cert etc.) The ECO's are living in the same society as the applicant after all - they know the score - they know how society works there. If they didn't then surely they wouldn't be able to make objective decisions on applications they review for that region/country?

Hope that is some comfort to those who feel the system may be very rigid on a global scale and therefore creates anxiety when such documents considered as critical simply aren't available to submit (which was the case for us). I don't think we were 'lucky', I think we were just treated fairly. Handing over as much information as possible though is the better thing to do in such circumstances, I would suggest. We wrote a sincere letter to explain our situation - being in a genuine relationship as a family and living together and telling the absolute truth about how everything really is - i think sincerity is noticed and that it was an asset to the application made in our case. Others may agree that the process is more human than first impression may dictate!

Once again, thanks so much for this forum and I wish those in a similar situation to the one we were in all the very best.

[Casa]

Really pleased to hear the good news! As I'm sure you already know, as soon as your wife has passed the Life in the UK test (KOL) after she arrives in the UK, she will be able to apply immediately for ILR.

[Ash4uk]

Thanks Casa! As it would happen, my wife was in Starbucks this morning reading her Life in the UK test preparation book. She's pretty keen to get the test out of the way as soon as possible after we arrive.

We'll be travelling in about 2-3 weeks since now we have the outcome we can focus on the logistics of the move.

We bought one way tickets to the UK, which i was told by the VAC here was fine for a valid settlement visa holder since the core reason for them to go to the UK was 'to settle permanently'. Besides, BA don't do 3 year return tickets to coincide with visa expiry dates.