Questions about Permanent Residence EEA4

[andrej]

Greetings all, I spent last 4 months obsessing with and collecting documentation for, filling in forms, waiting, trying to explain to my employer what EEA4 means and generally feeling under the weather. Finally I did recieve my PR 2 days ago, which makes me feel alive again. My questions are:

1. Finally with PR sticker in my NON-EEA passport, am I still considered a dependent or can I now pass the border control without being subjected to stupid questions about our relationship and where we work or live?

2. How soon can I apply for UK citizenship and will then my info matter unlike EEA4 application when they only wanted to know about my EU spouse's history?

3. How different is PR from ILR and (from the obvious no-fee vs fee and one falling under UK law and the other under EEA law) Are they essentially treated as the same thing once granted?

4 Thank to all the members who for months supported my moans and complaints and who shared their stories of woe and depression...

[Plum70]

Greetings all, I spent last 4 months obsessing with and collecting documentation for, filling in forms, waiting, trying to explain to my employer what EEA4 means and generally feeling under the weather. Finally I did recieve my PR 2 days ago, which makes me feel alive again. My questions are:

1. Finally with PR sticker in my NON-EEA passport, am I still considered a dependent or can I now pass the border control without being subjected to stupid questions about our relationship and where we work or live?

Congrats on getting your PR confirmed! You're now independent of your EU spouse, however an IO may still ask questions about your r/ship and spouse's whereabouts. This may purely be out of ignorance or efficaciousness but, whatever the case, you do not have to answer such questions.

2. How soon can I apply for UK citizenship and will then my info matter unlike EEA4 application when they only wanted to know about my EU spouse's history?

1 year after automatically acquiring PR - this will require producing your wife's docs again as your PR card will reflect a later date. One year after holding your PR card will not require your wife's docs. Your choice.

3. How different is PR from ILR and (from the obvious no-fee vs fee and one falling under UK law and the other under EEA law) Are they essentially treated as the same thing once granted?

No other differences that I can think of.

[andrej]

Congrats on getting your PR confirmed! You're now independent of your EU spouse, however an IO may still ask questions about your r/ship and spouse's whereabouts. This may purely be out of ignorance or efficaciousness but, whatever the case, you do not have to answer such questions.

1 year after automatically acquiring PR - this will require producing your wife's docs again as your PR card will reflect a later date. One year after holding your PR card will not require your wife's docs. Your choice.

Thanks very much Plim70!!! It was such a relief. I was at work when I found out the documents have arrived. I felt like jumping and screaming... still riding that wave of HIGH!!!

[Jambo]

Congratulations!

The PR status is independent of your partner. Unlike the RC card which states "family member of EEA national". The PR card says just PR. No mention of your EEA family member (and I'm not sure the IO would be able to tell if this was based on your father/mother/wife/boyfriend).

[seputus]

congrats andrej!! I'm still waiting for mine, but I expect to get it in the next 30 days...

Just a piece of advice. Yes, if you wait 1 year after your PR issue date, you can apply solely with your own evidence. However, and this almost tripped me up, you absolutely must have a guarantor (a person from a list of specific professions which has known you for 2+ years) to sign for you when you apply for citizenship. As I have moved house almost every year since arriving here this almost became an issue for me since I was changing doctors/dentists -- and I've heard there is no way around it.

So just be sure you have a guarantor lined up that can vouch for you 1 year from now. Congrats again!

[Punjab]

1 year after automatically acquiring PR - this will require producing your wife's docs again as your PR card will reflect a later date. One year after holding your PR card will not require your wife's docs. Your choice.
.

Hi Plum70 could you please tell me that do we really need eea spouse for having uk citizenship???? i thought you are free from your sponsor after you have eea4 or pr..

[fysicus]

andrej,

can you have a look at http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=70938 and let us know if the accompanying letter or leaflet has indeed been amended correctly, as immigration minister Damian Green promised to my MP in June?

[Plum70]

1 year after automatically acquiring PR - this will require producing your wife's docs again as your PR card will reflect a later date. One year after holding your PR card will not require your wife's docs. Your choice.
.

Hi Plum70 could you please tell me that do we really need eea spouse for having uk citizenship???? i thought you are free from your sponsor after you have eea4 or pr..

Only if you wish to apply based on automatic acquisition of PR instead of date of confirmation of PR on paper.

[Punjab]

Only if you wish to apply based on automatic acquisition of PR instead of date of confirmation of PR on paper.

what does this mean? sorry my english not to high

[Guerro]

For example, you married in jan 2008 then you acquire permanent residence in jan 2013. So you can apply for british citizenship in jan 2014 by showing evidence that you were permanent resident at that time, meaning evidence your eea spouse exercising treaty rights. If you apply in jan 2013 for pr and lets say you get it in june 2013 and want to apply for british citizenship WITHOUT showing evidence your eea spouse exercising treaty rights, then you need to apply in june 2014 and you DON'T HAVE TO SHOW any paper from your spouse

[Punjab]

For example, you married in jan 2008 then you acquire permanent residence in jan 2013. So you can apply for british citizenship in jan 2014 by showing evidence that you were permanent resident at that time, meaning evidence your eea spouse exercising treaty rights. If you apply in jan 2013 for pr and lets say you get it in june 2013 and want to apply for british citizenship WITHOUT showing evidence your eea spouse exercising treaty rights, then you need to apply in june 2014 and you DON'T HAVE TO SHOW any paper from your spouse

many thanks Guerro. Its just something new for me.

[andrej]

andrej,

can you have a look at http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=70938 and let us know if the accompanying letter or leaflet has indeed been amended correctly, as immigration minister Damian Green promised to my MP in June?

Hi Fysicus, here is the letters we got,

We received 2 letters from the UKBA with one labelled ECD.3113 (which I guess to be the EEA3) and ECD.3114 (I guess EEA4).
WHAT HAPPENS IF I LEAVE THE UK?

If you leave the UK, you will normally be re-admitted as a person with a right of permanent residence provided that:

ECD.3113
• You had the right of PR when you left

• You have not been away for longer than 2 years

• In order to be considered as permanently resident here you will have to show that you are habitually and normally resident in this country and that any absences have been of a temporary or occasional nature

• You will not be re-admitted as a person with the right of PR if you are resident overseas and only return here for short periods.

• If your absence from the UK is for longer than 2 years but you can still demonstrate you had a right of PR here when you left, and you are returning for the purpose of residing in the UK, you may still qualify for admission as a returning resident with a right of PR if, for example, you have maintained strong connections with this country.

• HOWEVER, even if you do not qualify for re-admittance as a person with the right of PR, as an EEA/Swiss national you will still be admitted as a person with FM rights

ECD.3114
• You have not been away for longer than 2 consecutive years

• You do not require a visa to return to the UK provided you are returning as someone with a right of permanent residence after an absence of 2 years or less

• HOWEVER, if you are returning to the UK after an absence of over 2 consecutive years and you are still the family member of and EEA national, and are either coming to the UK to join them or coming with them, you are advised to apply for an EEA Family Permit at the nearest BDP in the country in which you are living.

• If you obtain a new passport or travel document you may re-apply for PR if you want this passport to be endorsed

• If you do not have your passport endorsed before you travel, when you return to the UK you will have to satisfy the immigration officer that you had the right of PR when you left. To do this you will need to produce either the enclosed passport or other documentary evidence such as bank statements, notices of income tax coding, school or employment records etc. Relating to the earlier years of your residence in the UK.
This is word for word of the section explaining what happens if you leave the UK for 2 years or more.

The section before it explains the: CAN I LIVE AND WORK IN THE UK...blah, blah, blah. The last section concerns the CHILDEREN BORN IN THE UK.

Thanks

[andrej]

congrats andrej!! I'm still waiting for mine, but I expect to get it in the next 30 days...

Just a piece of advice. Yes, if you wait 1 year after your PR issue date, you can apply solely with your own evidence. However, and this almost tripped me up, you absolutely must have a guarantor (a person from a list of specific professions which has known you for 2+ years) to sign for you when you apply for citizenship. As I have moved house almost every year since arriving here this almost became an issue for me since I was changing doctors/dentists -- and I've heard there is no way around it.

So just be sure you have a guarantor lined up that can vouch for you 1 year from now. Congrats again!

Thanks seputus

My PR was granted on 14 September, one moth after my RC expired and 2 months after I submitted my application. It was only sent a month later togehter with all our documents and EU partner PR. I don't understand why they kept it for a month and why they sent your EU partner's PR with the CoA but are holding on to your stuff (am I right?). I think you got it already but they are playing around.

[andrej]

Congratulations!

The PR status is independent of your partner. Unlike the RC card which states "family member of EEA national". The PR card says just PR. No mention of your EEA family member (and I'm not sure the IO would be able to tell if this was based on your father/mother/wife/boyfriend).

Thanks Jambo - you rock!

[fysicus]

andrej,

can you have a look at http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=70938 and let us know if the accompanying letter or leaflet has indeed been amended correctly, as immigration minister Damian Green promised to my MP in June?

Hi Fysicus, here is the letters we got,

We received 2 letters from the UKBA with one labelled ECD.3113 (which I guess to be the EEA3) and ECD.3114 (I guess EEA4).
WHAT HAPPENS IF I LEAVE THE UK?

If you leave the UK, you will normally be re-admitted as a person with a right of permanent residence provided that:

ECD.3113
• You had the right of PR when you left

• You have not been away for longer than 2 years

• In order to be considered as permanently resident here you will have to show that you are habitually and normally resident in this country and that any absences have been of a temporary or occasional nature

• You will not be re-admitted as a person with the right of PR if you are resident overseas and only return here for short periods.
• If your absence from the UK is for longer than 2 years but you can still demonstrate you had a right of PR here when you left, and you are returning for the purpose of residing in the UK, you may still qualify for admission as a returning resident with a right of PR if, for example, you have maintained strong connections with this country.

• HOWEVER, even if you do not qualify for re-admittance as a person with the right of PR, as an EEA/Swiss national you will still be admitted as a person with FM rights
Thanks

Thanks andrej,
I think you are right that ECD.3113 is for EEA3 and ECD.3114 is for EEA4.
My wife applied for EEA4 and therefore we only got ECD.3114 which now looks to have been amended correctly.
However, the corresponding ECD.3113 has apparently not been amended and still has illegal nonsense in it which I marked in red in the quote of your post.
May I suggest that you file a complaint about that with your MP?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Can someone who has acquired permanent residence, take up a posting abroad working for a UK company for more than two years and visiting the UK regularly during the two-year+ period still be considered to have permanent residence? I would say yes.

Imagine the following hypothetical example. Jane is French, she acquired PR in Jan 2008. In February 2011, her company offers her a position in Florida to develop their business there. She comes back once a year for two weeks to attend meetings and to visit family. After three years, February 2011 she comes back to the cold and wet UK and is surprised to have her PR cancelled and is deported to France (ok, I've pushed the last bit too far).

[fysicus]

Even if you are physically present in the UK for only one day every two years, you would not lose your PR under EEA regulations.
Regulation 15-2 is just a single sentence in plain English and I don't see room for interpretation there.

For EU citizens the benefits of PR over ordinary Free Movements rights are negligible in daily life. You have somewhat more protection against deportation and your children can be British Citizens, and that's about it. So losing PR accidentally is not a big deal for them.
For their non-EEA family members, however, the benefits are more substantial: with PR your residence right no longer depends on your EEA partner, your employer does not need to check your right to work every year, etc.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Even if you are physically present in the UK for only one day every two years, you would not lose your PR under EEA regulations.
Regulation 15-2 is just a single sentence in plain English and I don't see room for interpretation there.

For EU citizens the benefits of PR over ordinary Free Movements rights are negligible in daily life. You have somewhat more protection against deportation and your children can be British Citizens, and that's about it. So losing PR accidentally is not a big deal for them.
For their non-EEA family members, however, the benefits are more substantial: with PR your residence right no longer depends on your EEA partner, your employer does not need to check your right to work every year, etc.

I think this is true. It may require a bit of a fight to ensure it is recognized. I have a long term plan to test it! And it is a great excuse for a regular trip back to the host country!

Any time in the host country, even an hour between flights, should be enough. So a same-day-return flight with Ryanair to Frankfurt-Hahn from the UK would involve a few hours of residence in Germany.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I might beat you too it.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I might beat you too it.

I am not sure how to measure who wins...

[andrej]

Greetings all, I spent last 4 months obsessing with and collecting documentation for, filling in forms, waiting, trying to explain to my employer what EEA4 means and generally feeling under the weather. Finally I did recieve my PR 2 days ago, which makes me feel alive again. My questions are:

1. Finally with PR sticker in my NON-EEA passport, am I still considered a dependent or can I now pass the border control without being subjected to stupid questions about our relationship and where we work or live?

Congrats on getting your PR confirmed! You're now independent of your EU spouse, however an IO may still ask questions about your r/ship and spouse's whereabouts. This may purely be out of ignorance or efficaciousness but, whatever the case, you do not have to answer such questions.

2. How soon can I apply for UK citizenship and will then my info matter unlike EEA4 application when they only wanted to know about my EU spouse's history?

1 year after automatically acquiring PR - this will require producing your wife's docs again as your PR card will reflect a later date. One year after holding your PR card will not require your wife's docs. Your choice.

3. How different is PR from ILR and (from the obvious no-fee vs fee and one falling under UK law and the other under EEA law) Are they essentially treated as the same thing once granted?

No other differences that I can think of.

Hey Plum70, you don't mind if I ask or anyone here can answer... Once you get PR, can you still proceed to enter UK through the EU/UK passport only line at the airport like I used to do on my residence stamp in tha last five years? Are they also not supposed to stamp the non-EU passport with the PR sticker in it? thanx

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Same as with residence card; use the EU line; no landing card; no stamp. No need to be accompanying or joining anymore either, you're independent of EU family member.

[andrej]

Same as with residence card; use the EU line; no landing card; no stamp. No need to be accompanying or joining anymore either, you're independent of EU family member.

Thank you EUsmileWEallsmile

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The general idea is that you have all the rights of a Residence Card, but it is more permanent. Namely: It only expires if you leave the host country for more than 2 years.

[andrej]

The general idea is that you have all the rights of a Residence Card, but it is more permanent. Namely: It only expires if you leave the host country for more than 2 years.

Thanks