Documents to send for naturalisation and PR

[juso73]

Hi there,

we are finally ready to apply for my husband's naturalisation. He has been granted PR in August 2010 (based on myself, an EEA national), has passed his test and we now would like to use the NCS to get our application to the UKBA.

However, now I am not a 100% sure if we need to fill in sections 2.4 - 2.6 of the AN form at all or can just leave them blank, as he already got permanent residence in his passport (and a letter confirming this). I am confused as it says in the guidance ''If you are a national of a member state of the EEA, or the family member of an
EEA national, and do not have indefinite leave to remain in the United Kingdom youshould complete these sections.

I know that ILR and PR are in fact the same thing but am wondering if this applies here as well or if this means that we still have to fill in these sections - am I making sense? I hope... And if we don't have to fill them in does this also mean that we don't have to bother with supporting documents at all such as P69s, bank statements etc?

However, in case we still have to fill these sections in we were wondering what sort of supporting documents we should send:

- Are people asking for their Employment History or any other document from the HMRC and if so how do they ask for it - calling them up or in writing (how long does this usually take)?

- Do people bring in all their P45/60s from the last 6 years too, plus bank statements etc?

- As my employment history is much easier (only three employers over last 6 years in contrast to his 7 or , should he apply based on myself? And if so do I then have to ask the HMRC for confirmation of my NICs as I have been self employed for 5 months between two jobs this year?

Any support woud be much appreciated as we are slightly confused - many thanks!

[juso73]

Anyone?? We have now both requested our employment histories from HMRC just in case, but I am still keen to know how people go about section 2.4-2.6 - would greatly appreciate a reply from an experienced guru. Many thanks!!

[John]

Given Q2.4 on the form says :-

If you are an EEA national or the family member of an EEA national, please complete the following section, showing on what basis you were in the United Kingdom for the last 6 years

-: yes I think that part of the form needs to be completed. After all someone might have got PR status, and then later lost that status.

[juso73]

Thanks, John. So do you think we should then fill this in with my details, given that my husband was here at most of the time as my dependant (even though he worked) - just as we did for the PR?

[freon21]

Given Q2.4 on the form says :-

If you are an EEA national or the family member of an EEA national, please complete the following section, showing on what basis you were in the United Kingdom for the last 6 years

-: yes I think that part of the form needs to be completed. After all someone might have got PR status, and then later lost that status.

How can someone with permanent residence could lose this status???
If he had permanent residence for over a year He does not need to fill that section but apply on his own right without having to prove again that his spouse has been exercising treaty right for 5 years .

[John]

I thought you might ask that! After all the design of the form AN, as regards these questions, is not exactly the best example of UKBA's work.

If I were you I would enter dates for the start and end of the last six years, and in the "Basis of stay" column, I would write something like "Family member of EEA national.".

Then in the "Please provide details ..... " column I would put something like "As fully disclosed when the successful application was made on form EEA4 for confirmation of PR status.", or something like that.

[John]

How can someone with permanent residence could lose this status?

Well it is as permanent as ILR is indefinite! In other words, not!

My understanding is that PR status lapses after two continuous years outside the member state that issued it. And under UK immigration law, ILR also lapses after two continuous years outside the UK.

[Jambo]

The whole point of the section is to established if you have obtained PR status (as you don't apply to get it). So if you got the PR sticker for more than 1 year, you can ignore this section. If less than 1 year or you don't hold a PR confirmation, you will need to provide the details.

[juso73]

Thank you all for you responses. Jambo, this is exactly what I was thinking but as the UKBA forms are sometimes deliberately misleading I thought I double check. My husband has got the PR sticker for more than a year now (and a supporting letter) so I think it would be useless to have to prove this again...

However, just in case: we will fill in the rest of the form and take all supporting documents with us to the NCS - I guess they should be able to tell us if for some reason we should fill it in again.

Just because someone might want to know: we both contacted HMRC for our employment histories from the last 5/6 years and got those within 3 working days by post. Mine is complete but my husbands is missing a few of the shorter employments he has held over the years... we will therefore also take P60s/45s with us just in case.

Thanks again, all, great forum!! Fingers crossed the BC goes all smoothly - the PR was an absolute disaster...

[juso73]

Hi, it's us again...

We have been to the NCS this morning and were unfortunate enough to get someone attending us who seems to have had their first day. The lady was nice but very confused and clearly didn't know what she was doing...

Just to summarise: my husband (Brazilian) is applying for Citizenship and has had PR (basend on myself, German, as a EEA family member) since 5 August 2010 (he has the relevant sticker in his passport). Now, over one year later, he wants to apply for Citizenship.

Initially the NCS woman took copies of his current passport (the one with the PR sticker, all pages), his old passport (dating back to 2003 - all pages) and the Life in the UK test and said that this was all she required.

Once we were already out the door she came running behind us and said that she had forgotten something and that we should also provide proof for the last 6 years in form of P60s, P45s etc

We have some of this but my husband had periods of unemployment inbetween and didn't claim benefit so proving his residence based on this is not a straightforward process, by providing 6 P60s for the last 6 years... He got his PR based on myself, as my employment history is very straightforward with much less employers and non stop employment for 5 years, and now only a few months of self employment this year.

As i had some documents with me I provided her with some stuff but she got very muddled, copied some of the stuff, couldn't decide whether she only needed it for the last year or the whole period and then said that her supervisor would check all this on Monday and contact us should something be missing... She was completely focused on P60s and didn't want me to provide her with bank statements which we had for the whole period non stop...

We are now very confused and whilst I am trying to get as much stuff together in case they need us to return with more documents I still believe that in fact none of this is actually required as it syas in the Guide for form AN as below:

APPLICATIONS MADE ON THE BASIS OF RESIDENCE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM
Evidence of lawful residence during the 5 (or, if the applicant is married to or in civil
partnership to a British citizen, 3) years before the date of the application
• Your passports OR say why you are unable to provide one on page 13 and supply
• Letters from employers, educational establishments or other Government
Departments indicating the applicant’s presence in the United Kingdom during the
relevant period

I am reading this meaning that you have to EITHER provide your passport(s) OR documents proving that you have been residdent here if you don't have your passport for some reason - but not BOTH.

In line with this thinking the guide goes on to say that in case your passport is NOT stamped when you enter the UK (which, however, it is in the case of my husband as he is Brazilian), then
you should send your passport and also
provide alternative evidence of residence as above.


To sum it up: I believe that we only have to provide Either his passport (with the PR sticker and the stamps) OR the evidence but have now been asked to do both... ;-(

Who can shed light on this?? Hopefully it's just the lady not knowing what she is doing, but it would be good to know if I am reading this wrongly...

The alternative would always be to apply based on myself as my employment history is much more straightforward as I have all my P60s from the last 6 years.... What do people think?

Please help!! Thanks!

[geriatrix]

NCS staff in question is asking for unnecessary documentary evidence(s). You need to put your foot down and ask where it is written that the applicant must provide the documents that he/she is demanding - when the applicant's passport(s) provide(s) the evidence of both residence in UK during the qualifying residential period (5 years preceding the application) and confirmation of PR (over a year ago).

[juso73]

Thanks for your response. I take this to mean that we should not have to provide anything else apart from both passports (current one with PR (dated 5/08/2010), Passport is valid from 2008 onwards) and the one before (valid 2003-2008) as well as life in uk test and that's it, correct? Please confirm.

if this is the case i will ring them on Monday and ask for this to be corrected and none of those payslips etc she copied to be send additionally (and unnecessarily).

Thanks!

[geriatrix]

How would a housewife / house-husband (who qualify for naturalisation) provide the evidence(s) that NCS staff is asking for?

By mentioning that the applicant is employed / paying taxes through PAYE, it does not mean that he /she must provide evidence(s) of either employment or income or taxes paid. This is not a requirement, as both the form and the guidance clearly indicate.

Alternate evidence(s) - such as those being asked - are required when applicant's passport(s) is(are) either unavailable or if the most recent passport has expired (and in such case, alternate evidences need to cover period from date of expiry to date of naturalisation application ... and not for the entire qualifying residential period).

[Jambo]

Officially family members of EEA national should not have their passport stamped at all. However, UKBA staff tend to ignore their own rules and in this case it would play in your favour. If his passport was stamped on entrances to the UK, then a passport is enough to prove residency.
P60 and other employment documents are irrelevant. There is no requirement to be economically active for naturalisation and residence can be proven by other means.

One of the advantage of using NCS is that they have direct access to the caseworker teams in Liverpool. Ask them to call Liverpool and check with them (as they are wrong).

[juso73]

Great, thanks both!! I was pretty confident that they were wrong but now I am sure... I guess we were just unlucky to get this inexperienced woman... but it certainly ruined our Saturday! I will ring them on Monday and tell them what to do. Interesting what you say about the Non-Stamping of the passport - they defiitely ignored their own rules as his pasport got stamped every single time - even when we went through the border together... good for us then...

Thanks again!!