Directive/2004/38/EC - Ireland - Directions from arrival

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:59 am

Hi everyone.

I will be arriving in Ireland on Friday with my Non-EU spouse. She was granted a Type C visa by the issuing embassy in Ankara, Turkey. I am a UK citizen. We are married.

Before applying for the EU 1 Residence Card I must find employment.

While I am sourcing employment is it ok for me to claim the equivalent Job Seekers Allowance in Ireland? I read you can transfer your countries JSA to another member country of the EU for a period not exceeding 3 months. This wouldn't jepordise the future RC application for my wife would it?

Does she have to go the GNIB to register when we arrive to advise we will be staying there? Or does this have to be done only when I have employment and exercising my treaty rights?

Any help of advice will be greatly appreciated.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:18 pm

andyjohnst wrote:Does she have to go the GNIB to register when we arrive to advise we will be staying there? Or does this have to be done only when I have employment and exercising my treaty rights?

I am not sure what you are asking here. Can you clarify?

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:31 pm

When I arrive in Dublin and I am looking for a job, can I sign on at the job centre to receive job seekers allowance until I get a job? If I do so, would this jepordise my wife Residence Permit application when I get a job?

When we arrive in Dublin, do I have to take my wife to the Garda to get a temporay residence card for 1 year?

If this is not clear basically is there anything you would suggest we need to do when we arrive?

thanks

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:05 pm

In general there is nothing you are required to do in the first 3 months. Just to get settled and then find work...

I do not think an initial period of job seekers allowance is a problem. And as long as you are legally in Ireland, then your wife has a right to be there with you. There are very few reasons they can turn the RC application down.

jcn50 · Post by **jcn50** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:11 pm

Hi andyjohnst,

I saw your previous post here concerning your wife's visa.

I think you made a huge mistake, according to this page:
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Ho ... _valid_for

Since your wife has a C visa, it's only a visit visa:
1- you won't be able to apply for a GNIB card for her when you arrive in Ireland
2- she will have to exit Ireland at the end of the C visa period (90 days)

Even if you try to force your way in by exercising your EU Treaty Rights, as per your initial visa application for a short term visit:
- immigration officier will not understand your sudden change of course (why did you apply for a visit visa and then searched for work?)
- because it takes 6 months for INIS to examine & grant a residence card (EU1 route), your wife may be subject to a deportation order for some months if you keep her in Ireland...
- your wife won't have a right to work during all those months as per: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000028

Is Directive/2004/38/EC able to confirm?...

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:18 pm

jcn50 wrote:I think you made a huge mistake [...]

Since your wife has a C visa, it's only a visit visa:
1- you won't be able to apply for a GNIB card for her when you arrive in Ireland
2- she will have to exit Ireland at the end of the C visa period (90 days)

[...]

I hope I am not wrong in my understanding.

You are wrong.

Any visa to enter Ireland is fine (so long as there is no lying in the application). In no case should Ireland charge any fee for the visa application.

Relevant ECJ case is http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/07/19/ecj-c-15703/

jcn50 · Post by **jcn50** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:29 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: You are wrong.

Any visa to enter Ireland is fine (so long as there is no lying in the application). In no case should Ireland charge any fee for the visa application.

Relevant ECJ case is http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/07/19/ecj-c-15703/

OK, i have read the case.
That seems to be a fair theory, but I wonder if it will be enforced once the OP is in IE. Let's see!

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:33 pm

Even in Ireland...

There are civil servants who know and respect the law. There are others who do not know it well enough. You could not imagine it being otherwise.

In every case the applicant will be better off if they know their rights, and can ask for senior civil servants (who are likely to be more experienced) to join the conversation.

jcn50 · Post by **jcn50** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:42 pm

Well even if the case you show me was 6 years ago, at that time: no civil servant in "the whole Kingdom of Spain" raised any concerned and said "hey wait, we are wrong on this one"... This is why it ended up at the ECJ~ (not with a EU citizen complaint, but with a Commission one). While the case goes up to the ECJ or while explaining its rights to INIS, it might be a financial and emotional turmoil for the EU/EEA citizen and the spouse.

See, the directive states than it shouldn't take no longer than 6 months to issue the residence card, however in the real life INIS sometimes takes 6 months and 3 weeks...

Let's see how it goes for the OP~.

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:17 pm

what is the GNIB card you talk about? The Residence Permit? This seems to be the topic troubling me.

My wife didn't really need to have a visa before travel as this could have been issued at the airport when proof is shown of her being a direct family member although getting to the airport may have been the tricky part

Obtaining a visa prior was the best bet, which we did. The duration is not not a problem, as Directive/2204/38/EC said and the directive states itself.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:21 pm

andyjohnst wrote:what is the GNIB card you talk about? The Residence Permit? This seems to be the topic troubling me.

Your wife will need to eventually apply for a Residence Card, which in Ireland is called a GNIB 4EUFam

See a picture of it at http://eumovement.wordpress.com/eu-coun ... o-ireland/

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:25 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
andyjohnst wrote:what is the GNIB card you talk about? The Residence Permit? This seems to be the topic troubling me.
Your wife will need to eventually apply for a Residence Card, which in Ireland is called a GNIB 4EUFam

See a picture of it at http://eumovement.wordpress.com/eu-coun ... o-ireland/

Is this what you get when you complete the EU1 form? (She can only get this once I am exercising my treaty right, correct)?

I'm just getting myself confused because I read on a post on here that once a NON-EU citizen arrived they went and got this GNIB card which was valid for 12 months then when the EU spouse is exercising the treaty rights got a Residence Card. Sorry if that's sounds stupid.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:27 pm

You use for EU1 to apply for the Residence Card

Ireland did and maybe still has a weird process by which the non-EU can then get 1 year Card 4 while waiting for the Residence Card to be processed. This may be what you are referring to.

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:33 pm

Possibly - anyway, I'm confident that I will get work within 3 months and get the EU1 application sorted.

agniukas · Post by **agniukas** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:41 pm

when you arrive to Ireland, your wife will get a visitor stamp in her passport for 3 months. after that you have to apply for EU1. while applying you should produce the evidence of exercising your EU treaty rights in ireland, i.e. working, studying, etc. if you are not exercising your EU treaty rights by that time, your wife will not receive a temporary stamp 4 for 6 months.

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:52 am

Hi everyone,

Arrived in Dublin yesterday. Not really a problem at the airport but the immigration officer did not stamp for 3 months but only for 1.5 months.

Does this mean I only have 1.5 months rather than 3 to exercise my treaty rights? Or, is the 1.5 month stamping insignificant and we still have the 3 months grace?

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:45 am

I assume this is 1.5 months for the non EU spouse.

I do not think it matters. As long as the EU spouse is legally in Ireland, then it does not matter how long the "entry visa" is for.

See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/09 ... eed-to-do/ and http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/09 ... eed-to-do/

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:33 pm

Yeah - 1.5 months for the NON-EU spouse. I am here with my UK passport so I am here legally.

Now for the hard part. Job hunting

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:21 pm

Is contract work acceptable form of employment? If so, what is the minimum term of contract work I could accept?

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:06 am

What do you mean by contract work? A short term contract?

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:39 am

Well yes and no. I would assume 3 month would be a short term how about a 6, 8 or 12 month contract? Or does it solely have to be permanent full time?

thanks is advance

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:14 am

See When is a Union citizen/an EEA national deemed to be a worker under EU law? for some case law

walrusgumble · Post by **walrusgumble** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:15 pm

andyjohnst wrote:Hi everyone.

I will be arriving in Ireland on Friday with my Non-EU spouse. She was granted a Type C visa by the issuing embassy in Ankara, Turkey. I am a UK citizen. We are married.

Before applying for the EU 1 Residence Card I must find employment.

While I am sourcing employment is it ok for me to claim the equivalent Job Seekers Allowance in Ireland? I read you can transfer your countries JSA to another member country of the EU for a period not exceeding 3 months. This wouldn't jepordise the future RC application for my wife would it?

Does she have to go the GNIB to register when we arrive to advise we will be staying there? Or does this have to be done only when I have employment and exercising my treaty rights?

Any help of advice will be greatly appreciated.

Jobseekers, you should be entitled to some form of "social assistance" provided that you can show that you are looking for workWhat particular label Irish Social Welfare give it, you will have to ask someone else,

(The cases are only given, so you know the actual legal basis, as Social Boys and Girls might pull as fast one)

Collins case
http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/g ... RET&where=()

Vatsouras - Very Important case
http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... od=boolean
http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... od=boolean
http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... od=boolean

You can be a jobseeker for about 6 months under EU law, and this might be extended

Jeopardise? Job seekers are considered to be exercising their Treaty Rights. But, you really need to be complying with Article 7 of Directive 2004/38 EC for family Reunification, to be on the safe side.

What's your chances of getting work? What sector are you looking into ?

To be a "worker", EU law is extremely liberal on the type of work and working hours. So even a Part Time job, with 15 or so hours, and supplemented by some form of social = Worker, thus complying with Article 7 of the Directive , thus wifie is sorted for the EU Treaty Rights.

andyjohnst · Post by **andyjohnst** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Thanks for the links. I will have a look over them.

In the UK I worked as an accountant. I'm part qualified so will be looking to progress with this. Registered with 3 agencies so far and they all seem keen to place me.

I was just wondering if contract work would be available for me. Like 3 month, full time contracts. 6 month, full time contracts.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:19 am

andyjohnst wrote:I was just wondering if contract work would be available for me. Like 3 month, full time contracts. 6 month, full time contracts.

Are you asking what your job prospects will be doing contract work? Or are you asking something else?

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Directive/2004/38/EC - Ireland - Directions from arrival

Directive/2004/38/EC - Ireland - Directions from arrival

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