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Passport Control: EU citizen with Non EU National

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adlexy
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Passport Control: EU citizen with Non EU National

Post by adlexy » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:29 am

Hello Folks,

A quick one that I wanted to make sure I got right for query someone posted to me:

An EU national traveling with a third country Non EU national family member arrived at the passport control. The Non-EU national is only carrying a C visa for a visit.

I think they both will check in through the EU gate as they are traveling together? Anyone with similar experiences or ideas?

andyjohnst
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Post by andyjohnst » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:24 pm

Dublin passport control is small. 2 immigration officers when I was then on 2 December with my non-eu spouse. We lined up together (EU citizens) and was told to go to the other immigration officer (on the right) to get the visa stamped.

Muttsnuts
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Re: Passport Control: EU citizen with Non EU National

Post by Muttsnuts » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:34 pm

adlexy wrote:Hello Folks,

A quick one that I wanted to make sure I got right for query someone posted to me:

An EU national traveling with a third country Non EU national family member arrived at the passport control. The Non-EU national is only carrying a C visa for a visit.

I think they both will check in through the EU gate as they are traveling together? Anyone with similar experiences or ideas?
You will have to queue on the Non-EU side in Dublin Airport so that they can entry stamp the Non-EU Passport. This is a breach of Directive 2004/38 and while I wouldn't kick too much of a stink about it, I would ask to speak to the Superintendent in Charge on this. He/she will say that they do it to keep track of non-EU nationals in the State and that they are permitted to do so under the Free Movement regs. They are and those are their instructions from INIS. However, the regulations are a breeach of the Directive. This is a High Court Judicial review case that is very winnable if you were so inclined...

Also, in relation to the visa, if the non-EU spouse has a Residence Card issued under Article 10 of the Directive from any EU State, then they do not require a visa to enter Ireland or another EU State.

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Post by andyjohnst » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:42 pm

Can a non-eu spouse travel to the UK to visit, if she has a Irish RC, if her spouse if from the UK. I am from the UK and wondering if my spouse can use her RC to visit UK, when she gets it.

In otherwords, can the use the RC to visit the EU citizens home country.

Also is the temporary stamp she will get in her visa while the RC is being decided a multi-visit stamp or does she have to stay in Ireland until the RC arrives?

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Post by newbieholland » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:51 pm

andyjohnst wrote:Can a non-eu spouse travel to the UK to visit, if she has a Irish RC, if her spouse if from the UK. I am from the UK and wondering if my spouse can use her RC to visit UK, when she gets it.
Your Non EU spouse can not travel to UK on the Irish GNIB (residence) card. The GNIB would state her nationality which means the airlines would not allow her to board the flight. She can be an illegal entrant if you try to enter UK via any other route.
andyjohnst wrote:In otherwords, can the use the RC to visit the EU citizens home country.
This depends on the nationality of the EU citizen. Some EU countries allow their nationals to enjoy the EU treaty rights without any conditions but since you are from the UK that is not possible in your case.

andyjohnst wrote:Also is the temporary stamp she will get in her visa while the RC is being decided a multi-visit stamp or does she have to stay in Ireland until the RC arrives?
She can apply for a multiple entry visa. The procedure is straightforwrd - upon approval from EU treaty she would need to get her GNIB card which will be valid for six months (while your application is being processed) and get a multiple entry visa is she wants to travel outside of Ireland. It is a very simple procedure and could finish within 2 hrs time.
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Post by andyjohnst » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:23 am

No you're wrong.

I done some digging around and found the ECJ case of Surinder Singh. The case stated that nationals of a Member State who are exercising an economic Treaty right (that is, as a worker or self-employed person) in another Member State will, on return to their home state, be entitled to bring their non-EEA family members to join them under EC law.

Example: A British national is exercising an economic Treaty right in Ireland and living with his non-EEA national spouse. On the British national's return to the UK, his non-EEA national family members can apply for an EEA family permit to join him under EC law.

The Surinder Singh judgement is incorporated into the EEA Regulations in Regulation 9. Family members of British nationals who meet the requirements of Regulation 9 are treated as family members of EEA nationals for the purposes of the EEA Regulations.

Applications for EEA family permits must meet the following criteria:

The British citizen is residing in an EEA Member State as a worker or self-employed person or was doing so before returning to the UK.
If the family member of the British citizen is their spouse or civil partner, they are living together in the EEA country or they entered into the marriage or civil partnership and were living together in that EEA country before returning to the UK.

Because EEA nationals have an initial three months right of residence in the UK, there is no requirement for the British national to be a qualified person on arrival. Therefore, an EEA family permit can be issued to the non-EEA national family member of a British national even if they are only visiting the UK with the British national before returning to the Member State where they are resident.

It does not matter if the only reason the British national went to another Member State was to exercise an economic Treaty right was so that he/ she could come back to the UK with his/ her family members under EC law.

So she can transfer her GNIB card for a EEA Family permit to the UK which means she could visit also.

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Post by newbieholland » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:21 pm

andyjohnst wrote:No you're wrong.

So she can transfer her GNIB card for a EEA Family permit to the UK which means she could visit also.
NO, I am not wrong. Where did you read that you can transfer a GNIB card to EEA Family permit? I wish that was possible.

She can and will have to apply for a EEA FP or a Spouse visa if you want to travel to UK from Ireland. Remember UK and Ireland does not share borders that means you can not just turn up at the border without an EEA FP and get your passport stamped. UK blatantly refuses the treaty right of Non EU family of EU national to be able to travel to UK on a Residence permit issued by another member state. As per UKBA they need to get EEA FP in advance. SInce you are a British CItizen it makes it more difficult for you as you need to prove you qualify under Surinder Singh.

Your best bet is your wife applies for EEA FP before thinking of travelling to UK. If you still want to travel to UK on GNIB card and have an illusion that you can transfer/trade it for EEA FP I wish you Good Luck. Keep us posted if you do manage to go to UK. There is a possibilty that you might not have any problem but I wouldnt suggest you do so.
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Post by andyjohnst » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:11 pm

EEA Regulations in Regulation 9

Family members of United Kingdom nationals

This section has no associated Explanatory Memorandum
9.—(1) If the conditions in paragraph (2) are satisfied, these Regulations apply to a person who is the family member of a United Kingdom national as if the United Kingdom national were an EEA national.

(2) The conditions are that—

(a)the United Kingdom national is residing in an EEA State as a worker or self-employed person or was so residing before returning to the United Kingdom; and .
(b)if the family member of the United Kingdom national is his spouse or civil partner, the parties are living together in the EEA State or had entered into the marriage or civil partnership and were living together in that State before the United Kingdom national returned to the United Kingdom. .
(3) Where these Regulations apply to the family member of a United Kingdom national the United Kingdom national shall be treated as holding a valid passport issued by an EEA State for the purpose of the application of regulation 13 to that family member.

Right of admission to the United KingdomThis section has no associated Explanatory Memorandum
11.—(1) An EEA national must be admitted to the United Kingdom if he produces on arrival a valid national identity card or passport issued by an EEA State.

(2) A person who is not an EEA national must be admitted to the United Kingdom if he is a family member of an EEA national, a family member who has retained the right of residence or a person with a permanent right of residence under regulation 15 and produces on arrival—

(a)a valid passport; and .
(b)an EEA family permit, a residence card or a permanent residence card. .
(3) An immigration officer may not place a stamp in the passport of a person admitted to the United Kingdom under this regulation who is not an EEA national if the person produces a residence card or permanent residence card.

(4) Before an immigration officer refuses admission to the United Kingdom to a person under this regulation because the person does not produce on arrival a document mentioned in paragraph (1) or (2), the immigration officer must give the person every reasonable opportunity to obtain the document or have it brought to him within a reasonable period of time or to prove by other means that he is—

(a)an EEA national; .
(b)a family member of an EEA national with a right to accompany that national or join him in the United Kingdom; or .
(c)a family member who has retained the right of residence or a person with a permanent right of residence under regulation 15. .
(5) But this regulation is subject to regulations 19(1) and (2).

Judgment of the Court of 7 July 1992. - The Queen v Immigration Appeal Tribunal et Surinder Singh, ex parte Secretary of State for Home Department. - Reference for a preliminary ruling: High Court of Justice, Queen's Bench Division - United Kingdom. - Freedom of movement for persons - Right of residence of the spouse of a national of a Member State who returns to establish himself in his country of origin. - Case C-370/90.


Summary
The provisions of the Treaty relating to the free movement of persons are intended to facilitate the pursuit by Community citizens of occupational activities of all kinds throughout the Community and preclude measures which might place Community citizens at a disadvantage when they wish to pursue an economic activity in the territory of another Member State. For that purpose, nationals of Member States have in particular the right, which they derive directly from Articles 48 and 52 of the Treaty, to enter and reside in the territory of other Member States in order to pursue an economic activity there as envisaged by those provisions.

A national of a Member State might be deterred from leaving his country of origin in order to pursue an activity as an employed or self-employed person in the territory of another Member State if, on returning to the Member State of which he is a national in order to pursue an activity there as an employed or self-employed person, his conditions were not at least equivalent to those which he would enjoy under Community law in the territory of another Member State. He would in particular be deterred from so doing if his spouse and children were not also permitted to enter and reside in the territory of that State under conditions at least equivalent to those granted by Community law in the territory of another Member State.

The fact that a national of a Member State enters and resides in the territory of that State by virtue of the rights attendant upon his nationality, without its being necessary for him to rely on his rights under Articles 48 and 52 of the Treaty, does not preclude him from relying on the latter rights when he takes up residence again in that Member State.

Consequently, Article 52 of the Treaty and Directive 73/148 on the abolition of restrictions on movement and residence within the Community for nationals of Member States with regard to establishment and the provision of services must be construed as requiring a Member State to grant leave to enter and reside in its territory to the spouse, of whatever nationality, of a national of that State who has gone, with that spouse, to another Member State in order to work there as an employed person as envisaged by Article 48 of the Treaty and returns to establish himself or herself as envisaged by Article 52 of the Treaty in the territory of the State of which he or she is a national. The spouse must enjoy at least the same rights as would be granted to him or her under Community law if his or her spouse entered or resided in the territory of another Member State.



Operative part

On those grounds,

THE COURT,

in answer to the question referred to it by the High Court of Justice (Queen' s Bench Division) by order of 19 October 1990, hereby rules:

Article 52 of the Treaty and Council Directive 73/148/EEC of 21 May 1973 on the abolition of restrictions on movement and residence within the Community for nationals of Member States with regard to establishment and the provision of services, properly construed, require a Member State to grant leave to enter and reside in its territory to the spouse, of whatever nationality, of a national of that State who has gone, with that spouse, to another Member State in order to work there as an employed person as envisaged by Article 48 of the Treaty and returns to establish himself or herself as envisaged by Article 52 of the Treaty in the State of which he or she is a national. A spouse must enjoy at least the same rights as would be granted to him or her under Community law if his or her spouse entered and resided in another Member State.

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Post by newbieholland » Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:02 pm

Andy I guess you are not reading between the lines. You are just not happy as I am saying NO when you are expecting the answer to be YES.

Read my post carefully and then the legislation you have pasted. Your wife should apply for a EEA FP under Surinder Singh rather than trying to travel on GNIB card. Read what I wrote carefully and may be search this forum a bit. Since there is no border control between UK & IRE she would be classified as an illegal entrant if she was stopped by UKBA. In that case if you fail to prove that you qualify for Surinder Singh that can further complecate things.

You are legally correct that she can travel to UK with her residence permit but in practise this is not gonna be an easy task. You might experience some very unpleasant situation while doing it. Good luck.
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Post by andyjohnst » Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:42 pm

Right ok. Legally it is possible. The same as being able to win the lottery is doable but difficult. I understand what you are saying.

What I was getting at also is the fact now I am exercising my treaty rights in a different member state, working and living with my non-eu spouse, after a certain length of time (9months?) my wife can come with me to the UK. By transferring her residence card I mean she would be applicable to apply for the EEA family permit, in my home state, under the Surinder Singh case.

Anyway :D what do you know about medical access for the Non-EU spouse whilst on a RC? Same entitlement as the EU citizen?

PS sorry for post hijack :)

newbieholland
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Post by newbieholland » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:02 pm

andyjohnst wrote:after a certain length of time (9months?) my wife can come with me to the UK.
It is not 9 months, that is the time frame for babys to be born :D . Please check one of my earlier posts which can give you more details. I am assuming it to be 10 weeks or more as long as its a genuine work.
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... highlight=
andyjohnst wrote:Anyway :D what do you know about medical access for the Non-EU spouse whilst on a RC? Same entitlement as the EU citizen?
I am not sure if there is a free medical access to EU citizen or even Irish citizen in Ireland. You can get certain treatments free but for most of it you will need to pay. Honestly, I bought the min cover insurance from VHI which is Euro 45 per month. But if you want to further dig into this check the following link on CIB`s site-
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/he ... _card.html
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Post by Ben » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:24 pm

Andy, the UK authorities will look for at least six months residence and pursuance of economic activity in Ireland in order for you to be treated as an EEA national for the purpose of the EEA regs (Singh).

EEA FP won't be required unless entering Britain from Ireland on Ryanair.
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Post by newbieholland » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:26 am

Ben wrote:Andy, the UK authorities will look for at least six months residence and pursuance of economic activity in Ireland in order for you to be treated as an EEA national for the purpose of the EEA regs (Singh).

EEA FP won't be required unless entering Britain from Ireland on Ryanair.
Why six months? I have seen a Couple of people qualifying and entering UK after three months stay in another member state.
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Post by Ben » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:30 am

newbieholland wrote:Why six months? I have seen a Couple of people qualifying and entering UK after three months stay in another member state.
That's just the way the UK implemented Singh. At first, anyway. I understand that they've relaxed it a little of late.
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Post by andyjohnst » Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:03 pm

Well, we'll be here at least until December 2012 before we consider our options again. Just the visits to the UK I was thinking about.

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Post by Ben » Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:12 pm

andyjohnst wrote:Well, we'll be here at least until December 2012 before we consider our options again. Just the visits to the UK I was thinking about.
Honestly, just don't fly Ryanair and you'll be worry free.
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Post by keloid » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:28 pm

Ben wrote:
andyjohnst wrote:Well, we'll be here at least until December 2012 before we consider our options again. Just the visits to the UK I was thinking about.
Honestly, just don't fly Ryanair and you'll be worry free.
Ben, when you say 'worry free', do you mean that he can get away with taking his non-EU spouse into the UK (with, say, flybmi) with just GNIB card?

Do you have experience in doing this yourself?

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Post by Ben » Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:59 pm

keloid wrote:
Ben wrote:
andyjohnst wrote:Well, we'll be here at least until December 2012 before we consider our options again. Just the visits to the UK I was thinking about.
Honestly, just don't fly Ryanair and you'll be worry free.
Ben, when you say 'worry free', do you mean that he can get away with taking his non-EU spouse into the UK (with, say, flybmi) with just GNIB card?

Do you have experience in doing this yourself?
Not with just a GNIB card. A valid passport will be required too.

Visa checks are only routinely carried out by Ryanair as a condition of travel. The absence of a visa is not a reason to refuse travel in cases such as these, and entry to the UK is lawful without a visa, but airport staff working on behalf of Ryanair usually do not know this and a debate is highly likely, with refusal of travel a distinct possibility.

Hence my advice to choose another airline.
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Post by Muttsnuts » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:37 pm

Ben wrote:
keloid wrote:
Ben wrote:
andyjohnst wrote:Well, we'll be here at least until December 2012 before we consider our options again. Just the visits to the UK I was thinking about.
Honestly, just don't fly Ryanair and you'll be worry free.
Ben, when you say 'worry free', do you mean that he can get away with taking his non-EU spouse into the UK (with, say, flybmi) with just GNIB card?

Do you have experience in doing this yourself?
Not with just a GNIB card. A valid passport will be required too.

Visa checks are only routinely carried out by Ryanair as a condition of travel. The absence of a visa is not a reason to refuse travel in cases such as these, and entry to the UK is lawful without a visa, but airport staff working on behalf of Ryanair usually do not know this and a debate is highly likely, with refusal of travel a distinct possibility.

Hence my advice to choose another airline.
Directive 2004/38 requires that a non-EU family member should be able to travel with their EU national family member if they have a residence card and passport but as far as I'm aware, the UK don't comply with the Directive here. THey require that hte non-EU spouse has a visa in order to enter.

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Post by keloid » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:36 pm

Ben wrote:
keloid wrote:
Ben wrote:
andyjohnst wrote:Well, we'll be here at least until December 2012 before we consider our options again. Just the visits to the UK I was thinking about.
Honestly, just don't fly Ryanair and you'll be worry free.
Ben, when you say 'worry free', do you mean that he can get away with taking his non-EU spouse into the UK (with, say, flybmi) with just GNIB card?

Do you have experience in doing this yourself?
Not with just a GNIB card. A valid passport will be required too.

Visa checks are only routinely carried out by Ryanair as a condition of travel. The absence of a visa is not a reason to refuse travel in cases such as these, and entry to the UK is lawful without a visa, but airport staff working on behalf of Ryanair usually do not know this and a debate is highly likely, with refusal of travel a distinct possibility.

Hence my advice to choose another airline.
Very interesting.

Have you personally tried this yourself with another airline?

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Post by Ben » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:40 pm

keloid wrote:
Ben wrote:
keloid wrote:
Ben wrote:
Honestly, just don't fly Ryanair and you'll be worry free.
Ben, when you say 'worry free', do you mean that he can get away with taking his non-EU spouse into the UK (with, say, flybmi) with just GNIB card?

Do you have experience in doing this yourself?
Not with just a GNIB card. A valid passport will be required too.

Visa checks are only routinely carried out by Ryanair as a condition of travel. The absence of a visa is not a reason to refuse travel in cases such as these, and entry to the UK is lawful without a visa, but airport staff working on behalf of Ryanair usually do not know this and a debate is highly likely, with refusal of travel a distinct possibility.

Hence my advice to choose another airline.
Very interesting.

Have you personally tried this yourself with another airline?
Yes. Aer Lingus and BMI.
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Post by newbieholland » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:37 pm

Ben wrote:
keloid wrote:
Ben wrote:
keloid wrote:
Ben, when you say 'worry free', do you mean that he can get away with taking his non-EU spouse into the UK (with, say, flybmi) with just GNIB card?

Do you have experience in doing this yourself?
Not with just a GNIB card. A valid passport will be required too.

Visa checks are only routinely carried out by Ryanair as a condition of travel. The absence of a visa is not a reason to refuse travel in cases such as these, and entry to the UK is lawful without a visa, but airport staff working on behalf of Ryanair usually do not know this and a debate is highly likely, with refusal of travel a distinct possibility.

Hence my advice to choose another airline.
Very interesting.

Have you personally tried this yourself with another airline?
Yes. Aer Lingus and BMI.
Where were you travelling from and where did you land?
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Post by Ben » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:01 pm

newbieholland wrote:
Ben wrote:
keloid wrote:
Ben wrote:
Not with just a GNIB card. A valid passport will be required too.

Visa checks are only routinely carried out by Ryanair as a condition of travel. The absence of a visa is not a reason to refuse travel in cases such as these, and entry to the UK is lawful without a visa, but airport staff working on behalf of Ryanair usually do not know this and a debate is highly likely, with refusal of travel a distinct possibility.

Hence my advice to choose another airline.
Very interesting.

Have you personally tried this yourself with another airline?
Yes. Aer Lingus and BMI.
Where were you travelling from and where did you land?
DUB, SNN and ORK to BHX, MAN, LHR and LGW.
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Post by keloid » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:42 pm

Ben wrote:
newbieholland wrote:
Ben wrote:
keloid wrote:
Very interesting.

Have you personally tried this yourself with another airline?
Yes. Aer Lingus and BMI.
Where were you travelling from and where did you land?
DUB, SNN and ORK to BHX, MAN, LHR and LGW.
Hi Ben,

As you may be aware, most budget airlines require you to check-in online. This involves giving Advanced Passenger Information (API)...i.e. passport numbers etc.

As a result, I suspect that, once a non-EU passenger declares that they are travelling from Ireland to the UK on the API system, an immigration check will be waiting for the whole flight upon arrival in the UK.

Am I correct in thinking this, or over-estimating the organisation of the UKBA?

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Post by Ben » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:23 pm

No. No airline flying between Ireland and Britain makes online check-in mandatory. The UKBA does not habitually place control on flights arriving in Britain from Ireland, regardless of the nationality of any if the passengers on a flight.
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